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Thread: The "age" of diva umpires

  1. #181
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: The "age" of diva umpires

    Quote Originally Posted by DocRed View Post
    I am absolutely SHOCKED that they suspended Culberth...kudos to MLB for that. Has that ever happened before for missing calls?
    Only once in the game’s history has an umpire been suspended for job performance. It happened to Bob Davidson, a 24-year veteran, last season for “repeated violations” of MLB’s “standards for situation handling.” His suspension lasted just one game.

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  4. #182
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    Re: The "age" of diva umpires

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Only once in the game’s history has an umpire been suspended for job performance. It happened to Bob Davidson, a 24-year veteran, last season for “repeated violations” of MLB’s “standards for situation handling.” His suspension lasted just one game.
    Thanks for the info...does anyone know whose decision it was to suspend him? Was it Joe Torre?

  5. #183
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    Re: The "age" of diva umpires

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Only once in the game’s history has an umpire been suspended for job performance. It happened to Bob Davidson, a 24-year veteran, last season for “repeated violations” of MLB’s “standards for situation handling.” His suspension lasted just one game.
    Wow, I suspected it was rare, but I had no idea it had only happened once before.

  6. #184
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    Re: The "age" of diva umpires

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    I totally oppose this!!!

    Those guys should not have been suspended but instead demoted to the minors. Sadly the umpires union will not allow it.

    I have been waiting all day to hear the whole story and if these four MLB umps didnt know that rule then thats just scary.
    I understand that the union has to look out for the interest of its membership but I wish they'd take a longer view and realize that protecting the worst of its membership does nothing but damage the reputation of the entire group.

    By and large I think the umpires do a great job; its unfortunate they're largely judged by the performance of the worst of their brethren.

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  8. #185
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: The "age" of diva umpires

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    The media and fans are the ones making this about the umpires.

    If people wouldn't obsess over every 50/50, borderline call that happens, the story wouldn't be about them. People should accept that they aren't perfect and they're going to make mistakes.
    Again, it's less about getting calls right or wrong for me than it is their complete attitude.

    It's about chasing after players to extend an argument. The player walks away and goes back to the dugout, then it's time to play ball. It's not time to keep the argument alive by chasing after him.

    It's about demonstrative gestures made towards players from 100 feet away
    in an obvious shirking of his duty to be above it all.

    It's about ignoring a rule of the game that was established by those who run it to make some attempt to preserve their own ego. (IMO, the only way anyone could have missed that Rosales call was if they simply didn't want to get it right and reverse the initial call).

    I understand that these are humans and they are going to make mistakes, and as humans sometimes they get caught up in it like the players do, but these guys are paid pretty darned good coin to maintain order not to be part of the chaos.

    IMO, the umpires have made a spectacle of themselves and I believe the public is losing confidence in them (and that was before the whole pitching substitution fiasco). As for making mistakes, how do 4 guys miss the replay call? It's not just one guy. How do 4 guys miss the pitching change thing? That isn't people obsessing over 50/50 borderline calls.

    As for getting calls right, I still say the best position to get the best look at the call is in the replay booth. I can see how a lot of these calls are missed on the field. Why accept that? 50 years ago the current system was the best we could do, but we can do better now. We all see it every night because we have access to a better look than the guys making the decision's do. Seems pretty nuts that you or I get a better look at the call than the guy actually making the decision. Why deny themselves the opportunity to get it right?

    I'm glad the guy who operated on my knee didn't use that logic. I'd have hated to have had a huge scar and 6 weeks off of my feet because some stubborn Doctor refused to embrace the technological improvements and used a knife like it was 1950, when the scope was available and I was back to work in a couple of days with no scar at all.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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  10. #186
    Moderator Plus Plus's Avatar
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    Re: The "age" of diva umpires

    http://imgur.com/a/mxEl9

    This just seems to fit well here.

    Can anyone name some of them based on these 1 second long clips?
    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Thus his team was punished

    Long live punishment

  11. #187
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: The "age" of diva umpires

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    My dad can beat up your dad.
    Probably so, but my Mom would whip both of our dads at the same time.

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  13. #188
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: The "age" of diva umpires

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    I like umps, I like people complaining about them as if they are the first to be the ones complaining
    I like those "imperfect" umps too. But the perfect always strives to eradicate the imperfect.

    I say we replace the fans with machines.

    Lessens from Karn Evil 9....

    I am all there is
    Negative! primitive! limited! I let you live!
    But I gave you life
    What else could you do?
    To do what was right
    I'm perfect! are you?

    Besides, replacing the umps won't lessen fan complaining either. There's still the players, manager, GM, owner, base coaches, trainers, team physician, bat boy, mascot, and concession prices.


    Captain Kirk needed his pain.... and fans need to complain. LOL
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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  15. #189
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: The "age" of diva umpires

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    It's clear that some people just flat out hate umpires and it doesn't matter who's doing it... they're wrong and we're right. It doesn't matter if umpires get 98% of the calls right, people will remember the 2% of times they screwed up.

    Guess it's OK for everyone to be human except umpires. It's OK for everyone to have egos except umpires.
    98% isn't too impressive once you realize 95% of the calls are totally obvious. The mistakes are not really the issue. Everyone realizes umpires are human and will make some mistakes. The issue is those umpires who don't care about making bad calls. Some umpires make bad calls on purpose just out of spite or because they think they are above the rules.

    If an umpire makes a mistake because he saw the play wrong or couldn't see well enough, all he has to do is be humble and admit he screwed up like Jim Joyce did when he blew the call on Armando Gallaraga's perfect game. He was man enough to admit it and he genuinely felt bad about it. Most people (not everyone of course) will forgive and respect an honest umpire who makes a mistake. What drives people crazy are the wild, ranting, in-your-face egotist umpires who care more about their "authority" than getting the calls right exactly as the rulebook calls for.

    But frequently we see umpires who make bad calls without caring one whit. Too many umpires like Angel Hernandez, Joe West, Dave Pallone, John Hirschbeck and dozens of others enjoy rubbing bad calls in the faces of the players and managers. They know they can call whatever they want and nobody can do anything about it. They break rules and make bad calls just to protect their authority or get back at a player for a perceived slight. Too many of them crave attention and make exaggerated strike calls with wild gestures to draw attention to themselves and rub their power in the faces of the players. Those umpires just love their authority, which is the main reason some guys become umpires in the first place -- because they crave power and authority over other people. Some people abuse their authority and lord it over others for pleasure. Thankfully there are many honest, humble umpires as well. An efficient, low-key, honest, well-trained, unemotional, dignified, impartial umpire who strives for perfection is a rare luxury in baseball these days, always has been for that matter.

    The game is about the players and the teams. Umpires are no different than ushers or security guards or beer vendors or the grounds crew -- they are there to perform a service on behalf of the teams and the fans. Anybody can be trained to be a good umpire. It requires no special talent or skills that most normal average people don't have. They should do their job quietly, professionally and anonymously then grab their paycheck and go home.

    If anybody recognizes the umpire or knows who the umpire is it is a sure sign that he is a poor umpire.
    Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 05-11-2013 at 04:24 AM.

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  17. #190
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    Re: The "age" of diva umpires

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post

    Umpires are no different than ushers or security guards or beer vendors or the grounds crew -- they are there to perform a service on behalf of the teams and the fans. Anybody can be trained to be a good umpire. It requires no special talent or skills that most normal average people don't have. .

    .
    This statement above confirms to me that you have no clue about the world of umpiring. I hard very strong suspicions before but this clinches it for me.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

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  19. #191
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: The "age" of diva umpires

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    98% isn't too impressive once you realize 95% of the calls are totally obvious. The mistakes are not really the issue. Everyone realizes umpires are human and will make some mistakes. The issue is those umpires who don't care about making bad calls. Some umpires make bad calls on purpose just out of spite or because they think they are above the rules.

    If an umpire makes a mistake because he saw the play wrong or couldn't see well enough, all he has to do is be humble and admit he screwed up like Jim Joyce did when he blew the call on Armando Gallaraga's perfect game. He was man enough to admit it and he genuinely felt bad about it. Most people (not everyone of course) will forgive and respect an honest umpire who makes a mistake. What drives people crazy are the wild, ranting, in-your-face egotist umpires who care more about their "authority" than getting the calls right exactly as the rulebook calls for.

    But frequently we see umpires who make bad calls without caring one whit. Too many umpires like Angel Hernandez, Joe West, Dave Pallone, John Hirschbeck and dozens of others enjoy rubbing bad calls in the faces of the players and managers. They know they can call whatever they want and nobody can do anything about it. They break rules and make bad calls just to protect their authority or get back at a player for a perceived slight. Too many of them crave attention and make exaggerated strike calls with wild gestures to draw attention to themselves and rub their power in the faces of the players. Those umpires just love their authority, which is the main reason some guys become umpires in the first place -- because they crave power and authority over other people. Some people abuse their authority and lord it over others for pleasure. Thankfully there are many honest, humble umpires as well. An efficient, low-key, honest, well-trained, unemotional, dignified, impartial umpire who strives for perfection is a rare luxury in baseball these days, always has been for that matter.

    The game is about the players and the teams. Umpires are no different than ushers or security guards or beer vendors or the grounds crew -- they are there to perform a service on behalf of the teams and the fans. Anybody can be trained to be a good umpire. It requires no special talent or skills that most normal average people don't have. They should do their job quietly, professionally and anonymously then grab their paycheck and go home.

    If anybody recognizes the umpire or knows who the umpire is it is a sure sign that he is a poor umpire.
    You clearly have never umpired a game in your life.

    I urge you to go out and do so. Start with Little League. Let me know where you're doing it. Then, I want you to explain to me why everyone is unhappy with your performance if it's so easy and anyone can do it. Because make no mistake, people will think you're doing a lousy job. Anyone can do it, sure, but not anyone or everyone can be any good at it. And even the good ones make people like you unhappy no matter how much better they are than you. You just don't realize it because you've never actually done it.

    This "anyone can do it" line just proves to me that your have an irrational hatred of umpires and you will never be satisfied. Such a response proves that you will never have grounded view in this kind of discussion because it's immediately rooted on silly premises.
    Last edited by Brutus; 05-11-2013 at 11:33 AM.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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  21. #192
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: The "age" of diva umpires

    And btw, I've always viewed the exaggerated strike calls by umpires as them having some fun. Umpiring is boring. It's not an attention grab. After a while it simply becomes the way they do it, second nature.
    2014 predictions:
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  22. #193
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: The "age" of diva umpires

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Again, it's less about getting calls right or wrong for me than it is their complete attitude.

    It's about chasing after players to extend an argument. The player walks away and goes back to the dugout, then it's time to play ball. It's not time to keep the argument alive by chasing after him.

    It's about demonstrative gestures made towards players from 100 feet away
    in an obvious shirking of his duty to be above it all.

    It's about ignoring a rule of the game that was established by those who run it to make some attempt to preserve their own ego. (IMO, the only way anyone could have missed that Rosales call was if they simply didn't want to get it right and reverse the initial call).

    I understand that these are humans and they are going to make mistakes, and as humans sometimes they get caught up in it like the players do, but these guys are paid pretty darned good coin to maintain order not to be part of the chaos.

    IMO, the umpires have made a spectacle of themselves and I believe the public is losing confidence in them (and that was before the whole pitching substitution fiasco). As for making mistakes, how do 4 guys miss the replay call? It's not just one guy. How do 4 guys miss the pitching change thing? That isn't people obsessing over 50/50 borderline calls.

    As for getting calls right, I still say the best position to get the best look at the call is in the replay booth. I can see how a lot of these calls are missed on the field. Why accept that? 50 years ago the current system was the best we could do, but we can do better now. We all see it every night because we have access to a better look than the guys making the decision's do. Seems pretty nuts that you or I get a better look at the call than the guy actually making the decision. Why deny themselves the opportunity to get it right?

    I'm glad the guy who operated on my knee didn't use that logic. I'd have hated to have had a huge scar and 6 weeks off of my feet because some stubborn Doctor refused to embrace the technological improvements and used a knife like it was 1950, when the scope was available and I was back to work in a couple of days with no scar at all.
    It's amazing to me that you can diagnose someone's ego because of a clip you see on television without knowing what was said or what's going through an umpire's mind. And from those clips of a few umpires that do it, therefore you can label the entire profession as having an attitude problem.

    Here's a possibility: there are about 60 umpires working a given night over 15 games. Over the course of 140-150 innings a night, you get maybe one or two heated exchanges. Twenty years ago, this was happening, but you wouldn't know the difference because not all the games were televised and there wasn't as much media attention. Now, if it happens, in the world of instant news and social media, with access to every game on MLB TV and highlights cut up and posted, everyone sees them and it *seems* that umpires are out of control with their egos. In reality, nothing has changed over the years. You're just seeing more of it than you did before.

    Like I said, this is more about what fans and media are doing than what umpires are doing. The umpiring hasn't changed. The news cycle and media attention is the medium that's far difference than it was 20-30 years ago. Everything is blown up and magnified now to the point where it appears to be happening more frequently than it was.

    Comparing doctors and umpires is also a pointless exercise. Doctors aren't in jeopardy of losing their profession, and their jobs are to save lives. Umpires are simply expected to keep order in a thankless job where everyone is second-guessing them. If a doctor tells you something, you take their word for it because they're the expert and they know what they're doing. Umpires are always wrong, on the other hand. And you're so sure of it you want to use replay for subjective things you can watch 10 times and still not always be certain.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  23. #194
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: The "age" of diva umpires

    Important context: the umpires whose actions have precipitated these discussions about umpire performance have been fined and suspended by MLB for their job performances in question.
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  24. #195
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: The "age" of diva umpires

    nm
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

    http://dalmady.blogspot.com


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