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Thread: choking up to make contact...

  1. #61
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    I quoted what you said. It is there in black and white. And you are wrong.

    Hitting coaches would love for their players to shorten up and put the ball in play in any number or situations. But like all three coaches above said, players don't want to listen. Most sluggers make more in one game than a hitting coach makes all year. What makes you think they are going to listen to him?
    LOL the quote says "very few" not none. Read it again. No need to get so upset over someone's opinion dude.

    If coaches told the players to choke up they would choke up. Players have to do as they are told. If choking up were such a good idea the players would be made to do it -- they are not. This isn't the 1970's anymore. Things have changed.

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  3. #62
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Here is another hitting coach whose players ignore him when he asks them to choke up.

    Cincinnati's All-Star first baseman said he chokes up about an inch-and-a-half on almost every at-bat and especially with two strikes -- for better bat control and because slugger Barry Bonds did, too.

    "And that's what I use as examples," said Indians hitting coach Bruce Fields, who used to choke up, even on a smaller bat, when he played. "We've got the home run king. We've got the guy leading the National League in hitting [Votto is fifth, actually, at .348]. They do it."

    Yet he and other hitting coaches might as well be talking to themselves.

    "They just kind of blow it off," said a frustrated Fields. "What are you gonna do?"



    Baseball Players Rarely Choke Up Anymore

  4. #63
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    For those of you scoring at home, I have quotes from 4 hitting coaches who say they ask their players to choke up, but the players refuse. Atomic, when are you going to produce quotes from hitting instructors saying choking up is outdated and no longer needed?

    Personally, I don't care if players choke up or not. But I would like to see them cut down on their swings in pitchers counts. I would like to see them cut down on their swings when any ball in play would score a run. It gets old seeing .250 hitters with average to below-average power try to turn on everything and pull every single pitch. Especially when it's on the outer half of the plate and beyond. I see it night after night.
    Last edited by Norm Chortleton; 05-12-2013 at 02:11 AM.

  5. #64
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    For those of you scoring at home, I have quotes from 4 hitting coaches who say they ask their players to choke up, but the players refuse. Atomic, when are you going to produce quotes from hitting instructors saying choking up is outdated and no longer needed?

    Personally, I don't care if players choke up or not. But I would like to see them cut down on their swings in pitchers counts. I would like to see them cut down on their swings when any ball in play would score a run. It gets old seeing .250 hitters with average to below-average power try to turn on everything and pull every single pitch. Especially when it's on the outer half of the plate and beyond. I see it night after night.
    I don't care about cherry-picked quotes. You can find quotes that say anything. It is easy to find quotes where people say things that are clearly wrong.

    The proof is in the pudding. The best hitters in the world rarely choke up.

    If coaches wanted their players to choke up then the players would choke up. I simply do not believe that hitters at all levels of college and professional baseball are allowed to ignore the advice of their hitting coaches. Maybe a few superstars could get away with that, but the vast majority of hitters have to do what they are told or else they will sit on the bench. Most coaches realize that choking up reduces your plate coverage and makes it harder to hit the baseball, and when you do hit the baseball it is hit more softly and is therefore less likely to get through for a base hit. It also moves the Center of Percussion closer to the end of the bat and makes the "sweet spot" smaller. Choking up is a harmful approach for most hitters and that is why it is rarely done.

    Batting average is not a good way to evaluate a hitter's performance.

    There are no situations when "any ball in play" would score a run. Even if there are no outs and a runner is on third base there are lots of ways to hit the ball in play without scoring the run, some of them would even be more harmful than a strikeout. The batter could hit a pop-up, or he could hit a bouncer back to the pitcher or a drawn-in infielder, or he could hit a swinging bunt fielded by the catcher, or he could hit a line drive to an infielder, or could hit a shallow fly ball to the outfield. The batter can even hit a ball that causes the runner on 3rd to get thrown out or doubled-off. Driving in a runner from third is not as easy as people think and going to the plate just trying to make contact doesn't increase the odds of success. Baseball is hard.

    Hitters should always go to the plate trying to get on base rather than just making contact or trying to make a productive out.

  6. #65
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    I don't care about cherry-picked quotes. You can find quotes that say anything. It is easy to find quotes where people say things that are clearly wrong.
    Translation = You can't find any to support your side.

    I'm done arguing this with you. Just like I'm done arguing the K issue with you. In both cases I provided evidence that you are wrong, but you persist with the same arguments over and over.

  7. #66
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    Translation = You can't find any to support your side.

    I'm done arguing this with you. Just like I'm done arguing the K issue with you. In both cases I provided evidence that you are wrong, but you persist with the same arguments over and over.
    I think I whooped you pretty good in both cases. Feel free to disagree.

  8. #67
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    I think I whooped you pretty good in both cases. Feel free to disagree.
    You just proved my point. There is no arguing with you. We'll just have to agree to disagree (even though I am right).

  9. #68
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    For the record, all of my coaches told me to choke up with two strikes, every single one from little league to college.

    Here's a research article about it. If it's accurate, then coaches should be teaching hitters to choke up on the bat, if they aren't already.

    http://www.thesportjournal.org/artic...velocity-and-b

    Players using the choke-up grip swing had significant less swing time and stride time than the normal grip swing. Results also indicated significant greater bat velocities (p = 0.01) with normal grip swings than the choke-up grip swings. In addition, further results indicated no significant differences (p = .90) between choke-up and normal grips in bat-ball accuracy. These findings suggest that the choke-up grip facilitates faster swing time and stride time without compromising bat velocity or contact accuracy.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post

    If coaches wanted their players to choke up then the players would choke up. I simply do not believe that hitters at all levels of college and professional baseball are allowed to ignore the advice of their hitting coaches.
    You have obviously not seen much NCAA baseball lately. If you claim you have, you need to pay better attention. Most players will make the necessary adjustments to put the ball in play. Even more so in the last few years with the changes in the bats.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Most coaches realize that choking up reduces your plate coverage and makes it harder to hit the baseball, and when you do hit the baseball it is hit more softly and is therefore less likely to get through for a base hit.
    Once again, regardless of how many times you repeat it, it doesn't make it come true or make your opinion any more credible in the lack of evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    It also moves the Center of Percussion closer to the end of the bat and makes the "sweet spot" smaller.
    What?! The sweet spot is the sweet spot regardless of where you hold a baseball bat.
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  11. #70
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...





    How did I miss that Center of Percussion remark.




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  13. #71
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    For the record, all of my coaches told me to choke up with two strikes, every single one from little league to college.

    Here's a research article about it. If it's accurate, then coaches should be teaching hitters to choke up on the bat, if they aren't already.

    http://www.thesportjournal.org/artic...velocity-and-b
    You might want to carefully read a couple of additional sections from that study:

    Major league hall of fame hitters, hitting coaches, and managers (Alston & Weiskopf, 1972; Cobb, 1961; Lau, et al., 1998; Williams, 1970), and intercollegiate head coaches and hitting coaches believed that more bat control would produce greater bat-ball accuracy ((Delmonico, 1996; DeRenne, 2007; Gwynn, 1998; Kindall & Winkin, 2000; Polk, 1978; Stallings, J. & Bennett, B. [Eds.], 2003). ). This belief was supported in theory by Bahillís and Karnavasís (1989) baseball bat weights study. These investigators suggest that as hitters choke-up on the bat they will make the bat effectively shorter, move the center of mass closer to the hands thereby reducing the moment of inertia, in essence making the bat act like a lighter bat with greater accuracy. In contrast, the results of this study indicated that choking up on the bat did not increase bat-ball contact accuracy. Yet in essence, the hitters were as accurate choking up as with their normal grip swing.
    The section above it ("Linear bat velocity") outlines the loss of power associated with choking up.

    It appears that the plus side of choking up is that it allows a hitter to wait longer on a pitch with a slightly quicker bat; a potential positive for someone who's overmatched. The negatives include no contact accuracy gain, less plate coverage, and a loss of power. The first is at odds with the concept of any actual gain in bat control from the practice of choking up. The second makes hitters either more susceptible to same-side breaking pitches and/or coverage of the inside of the plate depending on where they position themselves.

    Of course, the variable is comfort level. If a hitter chokes up but isn't any good at altering his timing or positioning, I'd suggest that any potential gains may be, at minimum, completely negated; leaving only negatives.

    Knowing all that, I'd caution anyone from making a sweeping generalization about whether or not choking up is a good or bad idea as it's likely very dependent on individual skill and/or pitcher/stuff match up.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

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  15. #72
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    I see dead people

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    Member membengal's Avatar
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    Yoinks, Steel! My day is made.

  18. #74
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    You might want to carefully read a couple of additional sections from that study:



    The section above it ("Linear bat velocity") outlines the loss of power associated with choking up.

    It appears that the plus side of choking up is that it allows a hitter to wait longer on a pitch with a slightly quicker bat; a potential positive for someone who's overmatched. The negatives include no contact accuracy gain, less plate coverage, and a loss of power. The first is at odds with the concept of any actual gain in bat control from the practice of choking up. The second makes hitters either more susceptible to same-side breaking pitches and/or coverage of the inside of the plate depending on where they position themselves.

    Of course, the variable is comfort level. If a hitter chokes up but isn't any good at altering his timing or positioning, I'd suggest that any potential gains may be, at minimum, completely negated; leaving only negatives.

    Knowing all that, I'd caution anyone from making a sweeping generalization about whether or not choking up is a good or bad idea as it's likely very dependent on individual skill and/or pitcher/stuff match up.
    Good stuff, thanks.

    I agree. It depends on the player and the situation, but it shouldn't be dismissed altogether.

    IIFC, Charlie Lau would teach his smaller hitters, like Mark Belanger, to choke up almost all the time, but not stronger guys like Frank Thomas.

    Btw, nice to have ya back after all these years
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  19. #75
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    You might want to carefully read a couple of additional sections from that study:



    The section above it ("Linear bat velocity") outlines the loss of power associated with choking up.

    It appears that the plus side of choking up is that it allows a hitter to wait longer on a pitch with a slightly quicker bat; a potential positive for someone who's overmatched. The negatives include no contact accuracy gain, less plate coverage, and a loss of power. The first is at odds with the concept of any actual gain in bat control from the practice of choking up. The second makes hitters either more susceptible to same-side breaking pitches and/or coverage of the inside of the plate depending on where they position themselves.

    Of course, the variable is comfort level. If a hitter chokes up but isn't any good at altering his timing or positioning, I'd suggest that any potential gains may be, at minimum, completely negated; leaving only negatives.

    Knowing all that, I'd caution anyone from making a sweeping generalization about whether or not choking up is a good or bad idea as it's likely very dependent on individual skill and/or pitcher/stuff match up.
    Dude!

    Post more!
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