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Thread: choking up to make contact...

  1. #76
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    You might want to carefully read a couple of additional sections from that study:



    The section above it ("Linear bat velocity") outlines the loss of power associated with choking up.

    It appears that the plus side of choking up is that it allows a hitter to wait longer on a pitch with a slightly quicker bat; a potential positive for someone who's overmatched. The negatives include no contact accuracy gain, less plate coverage, and a loss of power. The first is at odds with the concept of any actual gain in bat control from the practice of choking up. The second makes hitters either more susceptible to same-side breaking pitches and/or coverage of the inside of the plate depending on where they position themselves.

    Of course, the variable is comfort level. If a hitter chokes up but isn't any good at altering his timing or positioning, I'd suggest that any potential gains may be, at minimum, completely negated; leaving only negatives.

    Knowing all that, I'd caution anyone from making a sweeping generalization about whether or not choking up is a good or bad idea as it's likely very dependent on individual skill and/or pitcher/stuff match up.


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    Chip R (05-21-2013)

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  4. #77
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Atomic,
    You probably ought to tweet at DatDude and tell him he's doing it all wrong by spreading out and cutting down his swing with 2 strikes. He just got a knock that Creeper said he'd never have gotten 2 years ago when he was still swinging as hard as he could regardless of count and situation.

  5. #78
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    Atomic,
    You probably ought to tweet at DatDude and tell him he's doing it all wrong by spreading out and cutting down his swing with 2 strikes. He just got a knock that Creeper said he'd never have gotten 2 years ago when he was still swinging as hard as he could regardless of count and situation.
    Creeper is a batting expert now? News to me.

    Brandon doesn't choke up...

  6. #79
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by TSJ55 View Post


    What?! The sweet spot is the sweet spot regardless of where you hold a baseball bat.
    I just saw this comment and boy are you ever wrong about that. You shouldn't mock people who are correct when you obviously don't have any idea what you are talking about.

    The sweet spot of the bat is the center of percussion, which changes based on where you hold the bat. It is not an innate quality of the bat itself but rather where the pivot point of the bat is, which in turn depends on where you grip the bat.

    If you hit the ball on the Center of Percussion (COP) more of the force will be transferred to the ball and less force is wasted in vibrating or rotating the bat.

    If you choke up on the bat it moves the COP out toward the end of the bat, making it more difficult to hit the ball hard and giving you less margin for error.

    http://www.exo.net/~pauld/activities...all/batcop.htm
    From the linked page: "When you hold a bat with your hands at the bottom of the handle (a normal grip), the COP is located about six to eight inches from the fat end of the bat. If you choke up on the bat, the COP moves closer to the fat end. That's because the location of your top hand is the place you want the bat to pivot. Changing your hand's position on the bat changes where that pivot point is, which therefore changes the position of the COP to one that corresponds to the new pivot point."



    You can google Center of Percussion for more information or check out these links:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_percussion

    http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats/cop.html

    Once again the fallacy of choking up is debunked, but the unwashed mashes will always believe what their Little League coach told them in the 1970's.
    Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 05-22-2013 at 05:10 AM.

  7. #80
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    I still see a majority of players catching the ball with two hands. It surely makes getting the ball out of your glove much faster and eliminates "a necessary movement" after the catch which saves precious seconds on the throw. There are times when you can't and shouldn't use two hands as you cannot get to the ball for the catch. I don't think you will find many coaches who discourage using two hands when it is possible, particularly on plays that involve a throw after a catch. Matter of fact, I can't think of a time that I have ever heard that in all my years involved in the game.

    As far as choking up goes, I think it gives a player better bat control, but a lot of guys today have abandoned that principal. Just my opinion.

    What's truly amusing is all of the definitive and absolute statements that are made in this thread with little to no evidence for support.
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  8. #81
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    I just saw this comment and boy are you ever wrong about that.

    http://www.exo.net/~pauld/activities...all/batcop.htm
    From the linked page: "When you hold a bat with your hands at the bottom of the handle (a normal grip), the COP is located about six to eight inches from the fat end of the bat. If you choke up on the bat, the COP moves closer to the fat end. That's because the location of your top hand is the place you want the bat to pivot. Changing your hand's position on the bat changes where that pivot point is, which therefore changes the position of the COP to one that corresponds to the new pivot point."
    Did you read your own references AD? Here'es a quote from http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats/cop.html Emphasis added by me.

    COP and the Sweet Spot - what location "feels" best?

    So, there is pretty overwhelming evidence that the COP has nothing whatsoever to do with the measured performance of a baseball or softball bat. However, from its definition as being the impact location that results in zero net force at the pivot point, the COP is still often referred to as being the "sweet spot" at least in terms of feel. Hitting the ball at the center-of-percussion on the bat should minimize the sting felt in the hands. Early research by Brody[6] and Noble[14] suggests that the best place for the ball to impact the bat with minimal force exerted in the hands is between COP relative to the 6-inch point on the handle and the node of the first bending mode of vibration. Robert Adair has long argued that its only the location of the node of the first bending vibration of the bat which influences feel.[15] Rod Cross conducted numerous experiments on bats and tennis racquets and concluded that the most comfortable location is somewhere between the nodes of the first two bending modes, with the location of the node of the second bending mode being more important.[16] The issue is somewhat controversial and has raised some interesting banter back and forth between holders of the various viewpoints.[17]
    It is true that the COP is the location where no net force is exerted at the pivot point. However, the recently discovered fact that the actual pivot point at the instant of collision is not on the hands under the handle, but about 2.5 inches completely beyond the end of the handle, renders the COP relative to the 6-inch point on the handle irrelevant. If the defacto pivot point during the collision is not on the handle, then there is no point on the handle where the net force is exactly zero and the COP is meaningless as a definition of the sweet spot. Recent experimental evidence for hand-held tennis racquets[18-19] agrees with the results for baseball and softball bats. The location of the pivot point is not under the hands. Thus, the center-of-percussion relative to a pivot point on the handle is not representative of the actual playing conditions and cannot be the "sweet spot" location that feels best.
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    RANDY IN INDY (05-22-2013)

  10. #82
    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Everyone keeps saying choking up gives the batter more "control." Can someone please define "control?" If you can't handle the bat at its normal length, then you should be using a smaller bat to begin with.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

  11. #83
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by TSJ55 View Post
    Did you read your own references AD? Here'es a quote from http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats/cop.html Emphasis added by me.

    COP and the Sweet Spot - what location "feels" best?

    So, there is pretty overwhelming evidence that the COP has nothing whatsoever to do with the measured performance of a baseball or softball bat. However, from its definition as being the impact location that results in zero net force at the pivot point, the COP is still often referred to as being the "sweet spot" at least in terms of feel. Hitting the ball at the center-of-percussion on the bat should minimize the sting felt in the hands. Early research by Brody[6] and Noble[14] suggests that the best place for the ball to impact the bat with minimal force exerted in the hands is between COP relative to the 6-inch point on the handle and the node of the first bending mode of vibration. Robert Adair has long argued that its only the location of the node of the first bending vibration of the bat which influences feel.[15] Rod Cross conducted numerous experiments on bats and tennis racquets and concluded that the most comfortable location is somewhere between the nodes of the first two bending modes, with the location of the node of the second bending mode being more important.[16] The issue is somewhat controversial and has raised some interesting banter back and forth between holders of the various viewpoints.[17]
    It is true that the COP is the location where no net force is exerted at the pivot point. However, the recently discovered fact that the actual pivot point at the instant of collision is not on the hands under the handle, but about 2.5 inches completely beyond the end of the handle, renders the COP relative to the 6-inch point on the handle irrelevant. If the defacto pivot point during the collision is not on the handle, then there is no point on the handle where the net force is exactly zero and the COP is meaningless as a definition of the sweet spot. Recent experimental evidence for hand-held tennis racquets[18-19] agrees with the results for baseball and softball bats. The location of the pivot point is not under the hands. Thus, the center-of-percussion relative to a pivot point on the handle is not representative of the actual playing conditions and cannot be the "sweet spot" location that feels best.
    Do you seriously want to argue a point of basic physics? You claimed the COP does not move based on where you hold the bat. I proved it does.

    Your out-of-context snippets show some scientists arguing over exactly how the sweet spot should be defined, but it doesn't change the fact that the sweet spot moves depending on where you hold the bat.

    The salient and pertinent point is not about vibrations or hand sting or feel despite your obfuscations. The COP is the best place to hit the ball to maximize the force that is transferred to the ball. Choking up on the bat moves the COP out toward the end of the bat away from the spot players have instinctively learned to hit the ball and reduces your margin for error. Choking up has been proven by physicists to be a dumb idea. It doesn't work. It gives you less leverage, causes you to hit the ball with less force (which means you are less likely to get a hit or especially an extra base hit), it reduces your plate coverage (making you more likely to strike out), and it fails to increase your likelihood of making contact (which defeats the purpose for doing it in the first place). Choking up is a losing strategy, always has been, always will be.
    Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 05-22-2013 at 08:15 PM.

  12. #84
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Maybe you should choose better citations next time. Selecting and posting science that contradicts your point doesn't work so well. Feel free to repeat yourself ad nauseum. This is long since old and I am done with it.
    Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted.

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    RANDY IN INDY (05-22-2013)

  14. #85
    Member ervinsm84's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Do you seriously want to argue a point of basic physics? You claimed the COP does not move based on where you hold the bat. I proved it does.

    Your out-of-context snippets show some scientists arguing over exactly how the sweet spot should be defined, but it doesn't change the fact that the sweet spot moves depending on where you hold the bat.

    The salient and pertinent point is not about vibrations or hand sting or feel despite your obfuscations. The COP is the best place to hit the ball to maximize the force that is transferred to the ball. Choking up on the bat moves the COP out toward the end of the bat away from the spot players have instinctively learned to hit the ball and reduces your margin for error. Choking up has been proven by physicists to be a dumb idea. It doesn't work. It gives you less leverage, causes you to hit the ball with less force (which means you are less likely to get a hit or especially an extra base hit), it reduces your plate coverage (making you more likely to strike out), and it fails to increase your likelihood of making contact (which defeats the purpose for doing it in the first place). Choking up is a islosing strategy, always has been, always will be.
    In theory I agree with you, but the hardest part for me to rationalize is if it's true then just how much better would votto be or bonds wouldve been?
    Last edited by ervinsm84; 05-25-2013 at 09:16 AM.
    Newsflash!

    Joey Votto does not care about RBI.

    NEITHER SHOULD ANY OF US


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