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Thread: choking up to make contact...

  1. #46
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Its because choking up on the bat doesn't actually make you more likely to make contact.
    http://www.thesportjournal.org/artic...velocity-and-b

    In summary and most importantly, the results of this study suggest that choking up for greater bat control may increase the hitter’s confidence and execution knowing that is able to wait longer for the incoming pitch because he is quicker to the ball, and he is as accurate as his normal grip swing.
    Conclusions
    In conclusion, although time was not significantly different in the acceleration phase between normal and choke-up grips, the total time of the swing (from stride initiation to bat-ball contact) was significantly less with the choke-up grip, which supports the belief of many coaches and players that using a bat controlled choke-up grip results in a “quicker” overall swing. This “quicker bat" implies that with the bat controlled choke-up grip, a hitter can wait longer in order to determine how to handle the incoming pitch. In addition, because linear bat velocity was significantly less in the choke-up grip compared to the normal grip, there may be less momentum with the choke-up grip because of the differences in mass distribution of the bat with choking up, which may result in decreased ball flight distance after impact. A decreased flight distance (power) may not be so negative, since the hitter’s main goal is more solid contact accuracies.
    Take what you want from all of this. It kind of argues both sides. All I need to know is, when good bunters stop moving their hands toward the end of the bat, I'll believe it doesn't increase bat head control. When professional golfers stop moving their hands down the shaft for more precision on delicate pitch/chip shots, I'll believe it doesn't increase club face control. When middle infielders stop using small gloves and start using outfielders gloves then I'll believe that having things closer to your hands doesn't increase your control of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    It is the same reason players don't use two hands to catch a fly ball anymore -- it doesn't actually help. If it worked teams would use it, but it doesn't so they don't. Its a fallacy.
    I'm not buying this either. Pros don't use two hands b/c they are pros and they like to "big league" and look cool. Whatever, that's fine. They are
    Big Leaguers.

    When moving laterally and reaching across your body, then yes, using one hand is better since you can reach further than with two.

    On a routine fly ball, while two hands may not help you, it does make it more likely you'll attempt to catch the ball above you head and in the fundamentally proper position. As opposed to off the side and below your eye line. It also gives a player a better chance at recovering before the ball hits the ground should the ball miss the pocket and squirt/spin out of his glove.

    It happens from time to time when a guy show boats a little too much and misses a play he should have made. It cracks me up every time.
    Last edited by TSJ55; 05-11-2013 at 08:51 AM.
    Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted.

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    Norm Chortleton (05-11-2013)

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  4. #47
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    OBP > SO
    Well, I don't see how choking up hurts his OBP. If he's more aggressive with WHEN he chooses to swing, that's one thing. But if he's just increasing his chances of contact at the expense of power when he does swing, that should help the OBP.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  5. #48
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Well, I don't see how choking up hurts his OBP. If he's more aggressive with WHEN he chooses to swing, that's one thing. But if he's just increasing his chances of contact at the expense of power when he does swing, that should help the OBP.
    I wasn't saying anything about choaking up. The post I was replying to mentioned that he was more worried about preventing the k over obp
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  6. #49
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by TSJ55 View Post
    http://www.thesportjournal.org/artic...velocity-and-b





    Take what you want from all of this. It kind of argues both sides. All I need to know is, when good bunters stop moving their hands toward the end of the bat, I'll believe it doesn't increase bat head control. When professional golfers stop moving their hands down the shaft for more precision on delicate pitch/chip shots, I'll believe it doesn't increase club face control. When middle infielders stop using small gloves and start using outfielders gloves then I'll believe that having things closer to your hands doesn't increase your control of them.



    I'm not buying this either. Pros don't use two hands b/c they are pros and they like to "big league" and look cool. Whatever, that's fine. They are
    Big Leaguers.

    When moving laterally and reaching across your body, then yes, using one hand is better since you can reach further than with two.

    On a routine fly ball, while two hands may not help you, it does make it more likely you'll attempt to catch the ball above you head and in the fundamentally proper position. As opposed to off the side and below your eye line. It also gives a player a better chance at recovering before the ball hits the ground should the ball miss the pocket and squirt/spin out of his glove.

    It happens from time to time when a guy show boats a little too much and misses a play he should have made. It cracks me up every time.
    Having both arms reaching toward the ball impedes your vision and makes it more difficult for your body to make fine adjustments at the last moment. A serious coach is never going to have you use both hands.

    Choking up on the bat gives you less reach and makes it more difficult to hit the ball, much less hit it hard enough to give yourself a good chance of getting a hit.

  7. #50
    Member ervinsm84's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Has there been any studies done on length of time for an outfielder using 2 hands vs 1 to get rid of the ball when a runner tags up ?

    Intuitively it always seemed that two hands would be quicker, and it's what we were taught, but that could easily be wrong
    Newsflash!

    Joey Votto does not care about RBI.

    NEITHER SHOULD ANY OF US

  8. #51
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Having both arms reaching toward the ball impedes your vision and makes it more difficult for your body to make fine adjustments at the last moment. A serious coach is never going to have you use both hands.
    Impedes your vision? Anybody who isn't coordinated enough to keep their arms out of their line of vision has more problems than trying to catch a fly ball. I'm also not real sure why a routine fly ball would be making any sudden movements at the last moment. Maybe a moth? The last part is just outright silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Choking up on the bat gives you less reach and makes it more difficult to hit the ball, much less hit it hard enough to give yourself a good chance of getting a hit.
    Was it you or someone else who made the comment about the All Time Home run Leader disagreeing. I'm sure there are several record holding contact hitters who would disagree as well.

    Devils Advocate much?
    Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted.

    All the dishes rattle in the cupboards when the elephants arrive

  9. #52
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by TSJ55 View Post
    Impedes your vision? Anybody who isn't coordinated enough to keep their arms out of their line of vision has more problems than trying to catch a fly ball. I'm also not real sure why a routine fly ball would be making any sudden movements at the last moment. Maybe a moth? The last part is just outright silly.


    Was it you or someone else who made the comment about the All Time Home run Leader disagreeing. I'm sure there are several record holding contact hitters who would disagree as well.

    Devils Advocate much?
    Not sure why my opinion elicits such rude responses from you.

    Very few players choke up or use two hands. If it were so smart then teams would make them do it. The very fact that they don't should teach you that teams have learned a better way to coach their players.

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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    I'm not sure what comment you are referring to as rude, but I assure you that's not the intent.

    As for the the way the MLB teams are "coached", it's already been said that watching big league players for cues on how things should be done at a fundamental level is largely a mistake. When they do things fundamentally sound, it's b/c they want to. Not b/c they fear what a coach may say or do to them.

    I've spent enough time around very high level baseball coaches, where skills are still taught, to know that catching fly balls one handed is frowned upon. I don't think the examples of smaller gloves, past great hitters, and professional golfers need any more explaining. I guess I could throw in the example of scoring positions in lacrosse using shorter sticks than those of defensive positions.
    Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted.

    All the dishes rattle in the cupboards when the elephants arrive

  11. #54
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    I believe the all-time career and regular-season HR leader would disagree with this.
    Bonds the steroids user? It's probably not a good idea to appeal to him as an authority.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  12. #55
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    Bonds the steroids user? It's probably not a good idea to appeal to him as an authority.
    You are right. Skinny, small-head Bonds only hit 411 HRs, an average of 32 per year, while he was choking up before his steroid days.

  13. #56
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by TSJ55 View Post
    I'm not sure what comment you are referring to as rude, but I assure you that's not the intent.

    As for the the way the MLB teams are "coached", it's already been said that watching big league players for cues on how things should be done at a fundamental level is largely a mistake. When they do things fundamentally sound, it's b/c they want to. Not b/c they fear what a coach may say or do to them.

    I've spent enough time around very high level baseball coaches, where skills are still taught, to know that catching fly balls one handed is frowned upon. I don't think the examples of smaller gloves, past great hitters, and professional golfers need any more explaining. I guess I could throw in the example of scoring positions in lacrosse using shorter sticks than those of defensive positions.
    Superstar players may get away with ignoring instructions from their coaches, but most players are required to do exactly as they are told.

    Catching with two hands is no longer considered a good way to field a ball and hasn't been for decades and even before that it wasn't the standard at upper levels. Choking up is something that a few players do, but most do not. Very few hitting coaches would instruct their players to choke up. It is an obsolete approach because it simply doesn't help in the way people used to think it did. If it worked it would be commonplace.

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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Superstar players may get away with ignoring instructions from their coaches, but most players are required to do exactly as they are told.

    Catching with two hands is no longer considered a good way to field a ball and hasn't been for decades and even before that it wasn't the standard at upper levels. Choking up is something that a few players do, but most do not. Very few hitting coaches would instruct their players to choke up. It is an obsolete approach because it simply doesn't help in the way people used to think it did. If it worked it would be commonplace.
    You can say it over and over again until you're blue in the face A.D. Doesn't make it any more true.
    Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted.

    All the dishes rattle in the cupboards when the elephants arrive

  15. #58
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Choking up is something that a few players do, but most do not. Very few hitting coaches would instruct their players to choke up. It is an obsolete approach because it simply doesn't help in the way people used to think it did. If it worked it would be commonplace.
    False. False. False. I am linking a story that quotes current or former hitting coaches Greg Gross (Phillies), Terry Pendleton (Braves) and Lloyd McClendon (Tigers) as saying they encourage their players to choke up.

    Here is an excerpt of the article:

    “They have it ingrained in their head that they’re quicker that way (not choking up) and they have more whip that way and they have more power,” said Greg Gross, the Phillies’ hitting coach. “I don’t agree with it, but they don’t do it.”

    Gross played several seasons in Philadelphia with Mike Schmidt, a Hall of Fame third baseman who hit 548 career home runs. Schmidt often tinkered with his swing and stance and made situational adjustments, including choking up when he had to make contact to move runners along. There are not many players who think like Schmidt these days.

    “For most of the players today, a strikeout is just an out when it’s not an out,” Gross said. “That’s the way the game has evolved. You don’t have to move up very far on the bat and you have more control of the bat, and I believe you would have more times making more solid contact.”

    Terry Pendleton, a longtime hitting coach for Atlanta and a former M.V.P. with the Braves, also favors choking up. He suggests it to hitters, but he is usually ignored.

    “They still do what they want to do,” Pendleton said. “Pride has a lot to do it with it. I think it’s what they are most comfortable with. Let me put it that way: I didn’t have a problem when I had two strikes on me; I felt comfortable choking up. A lot of guys don’t feel comfortable doing it. A lot of guys, it’s out of their comfort zone.”

    Like Gross and others, Pendleton says he does not understand why hitters do not try everything possible to improve their chances at the plate.

    “It is a lost art,” he said. “It gives you better bat control, gives you an opportunity to wait longer for a pitch and gives you better opportunity to react to a pitch, but it doesn’t seem anybody wants to do it.”

    In Detroit, Lloyd McClendon works with some of the best hitters in the league. The Tigers have Miguel Cabrera and Prince Fielder in the middle of their lineup and Jhonny Peralta batting behind them. McClendon tells his hitters to choke up at times.

    “We really implement it with two strikes, choking up, spreading out and putting the ball in play particularly with runners in scoring position,” McClendon said. “Even Miguel Cabrera, who is probably the best hitter in baseball, with two strikes, he spreads out.”

    “There’s a time with a runner on third, less than two outs and the infield back, you have to put the ball in play,” McClendon added. “We really stress that kind of ball.”


    Choking Up Has Become a Lost Art in the Major League Batter’s Box

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  17. #59
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    False. False. False. I am linking a story that quotes current or former hitting coaches Greg Gross (Phillies), Terry Pendleton (Braves) and Lloyd McClendon (Tigers) as saying they encourage their players to choke up.

    Here is an excerpt of the article:

    “They have it ingrained in their head that they’re quicker that way (not choking up) and they have more whip that way and they have more power,” said Greg Gross, the Phillies’ hitting coach. “I don’t agree with it, but they don’t do it.”

    Gross played several seasons in Philadelphia with Mike Schmidt, a Hall of Fame third baseman who hit 548 career home runs. Schmidt often tinkered with his swing and stance and made situational adjustments, including choking up when he had to make contact to move runners along. There are not many players who think like Schmidt these days.

    “For most of the players today, a strikeout is just an out when it’s not an out,” Gross said. “That’s the way the game has evolved. You don’t have to move up very far on the bat and you have more control of the bat, and I believe you would have more times making more solid contact.”

    Terry Pendleton, a longtime hitting coach for Atlanta and a former M.V.P. with the Braves, also favors choking up. He suggests it to hitters, but he is usually ignored.

    “They still do what they want to do,” Pendleton said. “Pride has a lot to do it with it. I think it’s what they are most comfortable with. Let me put it that way: I didn’t have a problem when I had two strikes on me; I felt comfortable choking up. A lot of guys don’t feel comfortable doing it. A lot of guys, it’s out of their comfort zone.”

    Like Gross and others, Pendleton says he does not understand why hitters do not try everything possible to improve their chances at the plate.

    “It is a lost art,” he said. “It gives you better bat control, gives you an opportunity to wait longer for a pitch and gives you better opportunity to react to a pitch, but it doesn’t seem anybody wants to do it.”

    In Detroit, Lloyd McClendon works with some of the best hitters in the league. The Tigers have Miguel Cabrera and Prince Fielder in the middle of their lineup and Jhonny Peralta batting behind them. McClendon tells his hitters to choke up at times.

    “We really implement it with two strikes, choking up, spreading out and putting the ball in play particularly with runners in scoring position,” McClendon said. “Even Miguel Cabrera, who is probably the best hitter in baseball, with two strikes, he spreads out.”

    “There’s a time with a runner on third, less than two outs and the infield back, you have to put the ball in play,” McClendon added. “We really stress that kind of ball.”


    Choking Up Has Become a Lost Art in the Major League Batter’s Box
    I never said there were not any coaches who like the choke-up. A few do, the large majority do not.

    Just the fact that so few players choke up is proof positive that coaches no longer instruct their hitters to do it. For every player who chokes up there are twenty who don't. It simply is not a smart approach for most hitters, and that is why it is rare.

  18. #60
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: choking up to make contact...

    I quoted what you said. It is there in black and white. And you are wrong.

    Hitting coaches would love for their players to shorten up and put the ball in play in any number or situations. But like all three coaches above said, players don't want to listen. Most sluggers make more in one game than a hitting coach makes all year. What makes you think they are going to listen to him?


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