more Dusty frustration...

[bigfunguy]

Ok, last night bottom 6, runner on first, Pitcher's spot up, and its Simon, who probably hasnt touched a bat since March...Dusty sends him up to try and bunt, he of course looks like a 5th grader, strikes out....then Dusty sends Lecure in to pitch.....WT_?????!!!!!!!

Can anybody tell me why, if you dont want to burn a pinch hitter there, but you're going to change pitchers, you dont send up Leake or even Arroyo/Bailey/Latos to try andbunt him over??? Was Dusty asked about this???

[powersackers]

That's a fair beef. Likely Baker saw him bunt in Spring or in practices and he was competent? Still Arroyo would be a good one to send up.

[bigfunguy]

no way Dusty could think he was competent, especially after his first attempt, and even if he thought he was competent, no way he's as good at it as one of the starters...Dusty has a habit of screwing stuff like this up. Last week he let Arroyo bat in one inning, then pulled him for a reliever. No way that should ever happen imho.

[dfs]

...Dusty has a habit of screwing stuff like this up....

....Dusty Baker trusted that Simon could get the bunt down. In showing too much faith in his player, Dusty put the player in a position where he could fail, and he did. FWIW Dusty COULD have pinch hit with Joey Votto the second who might have struck out and then you would have message board wags asking why Dusty burned through his bench so early in the game when he could have let the pitcher bunt.

Like it or not, Dusty Baker is going to go into the hall of fame as a manager. Yeah, back up and read it again.

What's better is that if in 15 years when somebody else is struggling trying to manage a mid pack reds team there will be message board wags who will pine for the days when Dusty was in the dugout pushing all the right buttons.

[Red Raindog]

....Dusty Baker trusted that Simon could get the bunt down. In showing too much faith in his player, Dusty put the player in a position where he could fail, and he did. FWIW Dusty COULD have pinch hit with Joey Votto the second who might have struck out and then you would have message board wags asking why Dusty burned through his bench so early in the game when he could have let the pitcher bunt.

Like it or not, Dusty Baker is going to go into the hall of fame as a manager. Yeah, back up and read it again.

What's better is that if in 15 years when somebody else is struggling trying to manage a mid pack reds team there will be message board wags who will pine for the days when Dusty was in the dugout pushing all the right buttons.

Don't disagree about your statement but I'm often amused by the people that tout that the number of wins he has validates his skill as a manager - he is 18th all time in wins --- what is never mentioned by these supporters -- he's also 18th in all time losses

[dfs]

Don't disagree about your statement but I'm often amused by the people that tout that the number of wins he has validates his skill as a manager - he is 18th all time in wins --- what is never mentioned by these supporters -- he's also 18th in all time losses

Well yes. And Pete Rose is first in making outs. You don't get the chance at the longevity if you are not doing something right.

Baker has very real skills as a manager combined with some very obvious flaws. He can be maddening to watch when things backfire, but the notion that Dusty is some clueless mouth breather that sits in the dugout chewing toothpicks instead of paying attention to the game is just silly.

[Red Raindog]

Well yes. And Pete Rose is first in making outs. You don't get the chance at the longevity if you are not doing something right.

Baker has very real skills as a manager combined with some very obvious flaws. He can be maddening to watch when things backfire, but the notion that Dusty is some clueless mouth breather that sits in the dugout chewing toothpicks instead of paying attention to the game is just silly.

Still not disagreeing with you -- but -- there had to be a but --- an awful lot of his wins

(840-715) were garnered with the San Francisco steroid gang.

I have trouble getting past that.

[scott91575]

Don't disagree about your statement but I'm often amused by the people that tout that the number of wins he has validates his skill as a manager - he is 18th all time in wins --- what is never mentioned by these supporters -- he's also 18th in all time losses

Dusty is not a Hall of Fame manager, at least not yet. There are 5 HoF managers that never won a World Series.

Frank Selee - pre world series era. Won 5 NL pennants
Ned Hanlon - pre world series era. Won 5 NL pennants
Rub Foster - Inducted due to Negro league success
Wilbert Robinson - elected in 1945. Method of induction is no longer in place.
Al Lopez - The only guy that even comes close to Dusty. Twice WS runner up, but had a .584 winning percentage which is 4th best all time (Dusty is .525).

Ralph Houk is not in the HoF with similar wins and 2 WS championships. Gene Mauch has more wins but a worse win percentage and no WS titles. He is probably the closest to Dusty, and was not voted in by the Veteran's committee in recent years.

It gets even worse for Dusty once you consider the managers he will be going up against when people do comparisons for the HoF. Bobby Cox, Jim Leyland, Tony LaRussa, Lou Pinella, Bruce Bochy, and Joe Torre. Yeah, Dusty is boned.

It's pretty simple. Dusty needs to win a WS. Until then, he is most likely not a HoF manager.

[lidspinner]

....Dusty Baker trusted that Simon could get the bunt down. In showing too much faith in his player, Dusty put the player in a position where he could fail, and he did. FWIW Dusty COULD have pinch hit with Joey Votto the second who might have struck out and then you would have message board wags asking why Dusty burned through his bench so early in the game when he could have let the pitcher bunt.

Like it or not, Dusty Baker is going to go into the hall of fame as a manager. Yeah, back up and read it again.

What's better is that if in 15 years when somebody else is struggling trying to manage a mid pack reds team there will be message board wags who will pine for the days when Dusty was in the dugout pushing all the right buttons.

Just imagine how good dusty could be if he just didn't screw up the little things? This is one of my problems with certain media types.....they think just because dusty is a HOF manager then everything he does is good or "good enough" to get a pass because he's forgot more about managing a game than I will ever know.......Pete rose once said that he watched high school baseball games when his son was playing and he would pick things up from high school kids.....basically,it's never to late and your never to good to not learn or not change your style.....if dusty just tweaked a few things here and there he could go down as one of the best of all time......but he won't and he will get a pass for it.

I am not debating this issue solely off him bunting Simon when he could've bunted a starter but there is a whole plethora of goof ups that dusty has has over the last few years that high school managers don't screw up.....maybe dusty has a reason for making his choices but rarely does the media ask him about his screw ups for fear of being black balled......few will ask but every media member who has the stand should ask dusty his thought process when he screws up.....or we think he screws up.

Wasn't there a thread on here a year or two ago that was all about dusty's mishaps?

With all that said, I think he is a good fit for this team......ad if you gave me carte Blanche to choose any other manager in the game, I am not sure I could come up with another manager and be 100% happy with my pick

[Red Raindog]

Ok, last night bottom 6, runner on first, Pitcher's spot up, and its Simon, who probably hasnt touched a bat since March...Dusty sends him up to try and bunt, he of course looks like a 5th grader, strikes out....then Dusty sends Lecure in to pitch.....WT_?????!!!!!!!

Can anybody tell me why, if you dont want to burn a pinch hitter there, but you're going to change pitchers, you dont send up Leake or even Arroyo/Bailey/Latos to try andbunt him over??? Was Dusty asked about this???

My Dish feed ended right after the last out so I did not see any postgame --- was he even asked about his logic there?

[westofyou]

Arroyo looked miserable bunting the other day... first if it's a bunt why burn a bench player when you still have three innings left? And if you are going to bunt a pitcher it might as well be the guy who is leaving the game and not a starter or pitcher who might pitch later, save their fingers (see Cozarts busted up finger as an example)

[NebraskaRed]

Arroyo looked miserable bunting the other day... first if it's a bunt why burn a bench player when you still have three innings left? And if you are going to bunt a pitcher it might as well be the guy who is leaving the game and not a starter or pitcher who might pitch later, save their fingers (see Cozarts busted up finger as an example)

This is the correct answer. No further discussion needed. You can blame Dusty if you want, but Simon failed to bunt, not Dusty.

[_Sir_Charles_]

This is the correct answer. No further discussion needed. You can blame Dusty if you want, but Simon failed to bunt, not Dusty.

Exactly. Yes, some guys are better at bunting than others...but all of the pitchers practice it and they're all expected to be able to perform that task. Clearly, Dusty expects his players to be able to accomplish this basic skill.

[Norm Chortleton]

Exactly. Yes, some guys are better at bunting than others...but all of the pitchers practice it and they're all expected to be able to perform that task. Clearly, Dusty expects his players to be able to accomplish this basic skill.

I'm pretty sure Cowboy said that the only time he practiced bunting was when he was a starting pitcher. Now that I think about it, he may have even said that relief pitchers don't even take BP at all.

[Raisor]

Exactly. Yes, some guys are better at bunting than others...but all of the pitchers practice it and they're all expected to be able to perform that task. Clearly, Dusty expects his players to be able to accomplish this basic skill.

Brantley was saying on tv last night that the relievers, in fact, do not practice bunting. Simon hadn't been called on to bunt in something like five years.