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Thread: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

  1. #1
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    More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Was having this discussion with my brother earlier. There's no question the Cardinals starting rotation is the best in the league so far, but is their 25-man roster more talented than the Reds roster? I don't think so.
    "I talked to an advance scout that told me if Joey Votto and Albert Pujols were on the same team he'd advise his team to do the unthinkable...pitch around Votto to get to Pujols." - Buster Olney, ESPN

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    Member smixsell's Avatar
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Talent for what?

    For baseball............the Reds

    For whining or explaining things their sons......definitely the Cards.

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  5. #3
    Salukifan2
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    This screams paranoia/inferiority complex.

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    Old school 1983 (05-12-2013)

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    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    The stats and recent performances say otherwise, but I just feel like that staff shouldn't be that good.

    Wainwright and Garcia rarely throw strikes when I watch them pitch. Everything is around the plate, but out of the k zone. But the hitters swing and miss liberally. I'd like to see hitters be more patient against them and see what happens. AJ Burnett of the Pirates is like that. Around the plate, but not necessarily strikes. If you get an ump with a large K zone, it helps too.

    This is based on when I watch them. I'm sure they look better against other clubs.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

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    The rest is drama. marcshoe's Avatar
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    I think the Reds have more talent right now, but the Cards farm system won't let them lag behind. Shelby Miller is already showing what he can do.

    I do think the rotation will regress, but they'll still be very good.

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    Member smixsell's Avatar
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    In all seriousness. The gap isn't tremendous, but I do think the Reds have more talent. Espescially pitching talent.

    I think regression will wind up being a charitable description of the Card's pitching staff when the big 162 is done.

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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Quote Originally Posted by smixsell View Post
    In all seriousness. The gap isn't tremendous, but I do think the Reds have more talent. Espescially pitching talent.

    I think regression will wind up being a charitable description of the Card's pitching staff when the big 162 is done.
    I know everyone loves Shelby Miller right now, and he looks great. But just for some perspective:

    Mike Leake after his first 11 starts was 5-0 with a 2.22 ERA
    Travis Wood after his first 9 starts was 4-1 with a 2.52 ERA
    Tim Pugh after his first 7 starts was 4-2 with a 2.58 ERA

    And for those asking whose Tim Pugh? I say... exactly.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    I think talent... the Reds

    Advanced scouting / game plan -- Cardinals

    Thinking how good Edwin Jackson (only 29) looked with the Cards, and how bad he looks now with the Cubs.

    Throw in the fact that Jake Westbrook's ERA right now is 1.62 despite having 19 K's and 18 BB's in 39 Innings with a Whip at 1.46.

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    OGB (05-13-2013)

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    Posting from Southwest VA redsfaninbsg's Avatar
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    One thing is certain, St. Louis can't play any better than it is now. I still the Cardinals bullpen ends up costing them the division. The recent consistency of the Reds offense won't hurt either.
    This is the ol Left Hander rounding third and heading for home.

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    Future Fame of Holler WildcatFan's Avatar
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Let's break it down.

    Catcher: Yadier all day. Best in the league not named Buster.
    First Base: Big advantage Reds.
    Second Base: I take the Reds, but it's closer than you might think. Matt Carpenter is showing his potential at the plate.
    Third Base: Advantage Cards, but a big year from Frazier could make this at least a tie.
    Shortstop: Who knows? It's probably a wash, but I'll give a slight edge to Cozart because of glove and experience.
    Left field: Holliday, Holliday, Holliday. Even when Ludwick is healthy.
    Center field: Give me Choo seven days a week and twice Sundays. I know the defensive range is horrendous, but that dude flat rakes.
    Right field: Beltran. It pains me to say that, but Bruce just isn't there yet. Now that Beltran has been relatively healthy the last couple years, you've got to take him.

    #1 Starter: Wainwright is trying to make me choose him, but I'll take Cueto by a braid. Open to criticism here.
    #2 Starter: Latos over Garcia, and it's not particularly close.
    #3 Starter: I'm giving a tie to Westbrook and Arroyo. We know who Bronson is--I'm not sure we've seen the real Jake Westbrook recently. Smoke and mirrors.
    #4 Starter: Probably Lynn, although some of his K/BB success is probably due to coming from the pen. It's close. Homer could prove me wrong.
    #5 Starter: I feel confident just saying Shelby Miller by a mile. Any objections? I didn't think so.

    Bullpen: We don't even need to break this one down. Reds pen makes the Cards pen look like the Bad News Bears.

    After a completely arbitrary tally system, I'll give a slight edge to the Reds, but there's a reason these two have been battling for the better part of four seasons. A worthy rival, that's for sure. Feel free to rip my rankings--I did this in like 6 minutes.
    "I never argue with people who say baseball is boring, because baseball is boring. And then, suddenly, it isn't. And that's what makes it great." - Joe Posnanski

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  17. #11
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    I know everyone loves Shelby Miller right now, and he looks great. But just for some perspective:

    Mike Leake after his first 11 starts was 5-0 with a 2.22 ERA
    Travis Wood after his first 9 starts was 4-1 with a 2.52 ERA
    Tim Pugh after his first 7 starts was 4-2 with a 2.58 ERA

    And for those asking whose Tim Pugh? I say... exactly.
    I don't think any of those players were considered the top pitching prospect in baseball at any points in their minor league careers. Shelby Miller was ranked where he was for a reason. I'm not saying he will be THIS good but he has front of the rotation stuff. He's getting it done now with his fastball/curve and has yet to expose teams to his pretty good change up.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

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  18. #12
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfaninbsg View Post
    One thing is certain, St. Louis can't play any better than it is now. I still the Cardinals bullpen ends up costing them the division. The recent consistency of the Reds offense won't hurt either.
    I've been on record here saying that the bullpen will cost them the division. That's before the recent moves they have made though. Adding Mujica as the closer and bringing up two studs including Carlos Martinez has really solidified the pen. Rosenthal has been pitching great as of late. The Cardinals didn't wait until July to fix their pen like they did the previous two years. If they were going to stick with the group they had, I would agree with you but the paradigm shifted when they brought in more talented pitchers.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    I'd take Frazier over Freese, as Freese is absolutely terrible right now.

    Cozart over Kozma is pretty simple in my mind because of defence alone.

    Bruce is better than Beltran, as Beltran looks terrible on defence and looks like he can't move that well.

    A lot depends on the health of the Cards like Beltran and Freese.

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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    .... and bringing up two studs including Carlos Martinez has really solidified the pen....
    Maness is a stud?

    Who knew?

  21. #15
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    I'd take Frazier over Freese, as Freese is absolutely terrible right now.

    Cozart over Kozma is pretty simple in my mind because of defence alone.

    Bruce is better than Beltran, as Beltran looks terrible on defence and looks like he can't move that well.

    A lot depends on the health of the Cards like Beltran and Freese.
    I agree with you about Freese. He has the ability to be a top 10 3B though. Right now as it stands, Frazier gets the edge.

    I have to disagree with you about Kozma vs. Cozart. Though Cozart is a bit better defensively than Kozma, I think Kozma's offense is way better than Cozart's right now. To me, it's a wash. Fangraphs essentially shows that.

    I completely disagree with you about Bruce. Though Bruce is playing slightly better, even though Bruce is having a down defensive year, Beltran's offense puts him over the top right now. In fact, according to Fangraphs, Bruce is having a -.4 WAR season thus far compared to Beltran's .8. There's no question in my mind who is better right now.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

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