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Thread: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

  1. #121
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Kozma does not give the cards "solid D". His range is exceptionally bad, as he seldolm gets to any ball hit up the middle. And if they are asking him to just hit .220 (and I'm not sure what you really mean by that), it's becuase they know he sucks and aren't expecting any more from him.

    Just becuase everyone has such low expectations of Kozma doesn't somehow elevate him becuase he delivers on such low expectations.
    Bingo.

    They're both asked to do the same thing - play SS and bat 4 times a game.

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  3. #122
    Member Magdal's Avatar
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Quote Originally Posted by NebraskaRed View Post
    Should we guess at stats without looking them up, like you did?
    I'm going to make another guess, one that you can go look up: Matt makes 5 times the money Luddy does. Is he 5 times more valuable? I really would like a heads up trade. See how you would like to see all that dough on a guy that leads YOUR team in nothing. (exept pocket money)

    It's Holliay's money that keeps the Cards from ever signing a top free agent. They have been VERY fortunate with 2 ailing, ageing guys in Berkman and Beltran. Not so much with Furcal. These aquisitions are gambles for big money, but not Cliff Lee or Prince Fielder money, for example.

    If you had Holliday you would not have been able to re-sign Votto! Think about that folks!
    Last edited by Magdal; 05-24-2013 at 06:56 PM.

  4. #123
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magdal View Post
    I'm going to make another guess, one that you can go look up: Matt makes 5 times the money Luddy does. Is he 5 times more valuable? I really would like a heads up trade. See how you would like to see all that dough on a guy that leads YOUR team in nothing. (exept pocket money)

    It's Holliay's money that keeps the Cards from ever signing a top free agent. They have been VERY fortunate with 2 ailing, ageing guys in Berkman and Beltran. Not so much with Furcal. These aquisitions are gambles for big money, but not Cliff Lee or Prince Fielder money, for example.

    If you had Holliday you would not have been able to re-sign Votto! Think about that folks!
    Holliday has been 4 times as valuable as Ludwick since signing the contract, and actually only makes a little more than twice as much.

    And he's really kept them from signing great players like Wainwright and Molina...

    You irrationally dislike Holliday, quit trying to feebly justify it.

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  6. #124
    Member Magdal's Avatar
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rijo's Ghost View Post
    Holliday has been 4 times as valuable as Ludwick since signing the contract, and actually only makes a little more than twice as much.

    And he's really kept them from signing great players like Wainwright and Molina...

    You irrationally dislike Holliday, quit trying to feebly justify it.
    4 times as valuable??? Are you joking? MH has been all but INVISABLE IN THE POST SEASON*, And w/o Luddy stepping up when Joey went down last year the Reds may not have even made the playoffs!


    *he was visable when he tried to make that catch with his nutz and GAVE L.A. the NLCS series a few yrs back

  7. #125
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magdal View Post
    4 times as valuable??? Are you joking? MH has been all but INVISABLE IN THE POST SEASON*, And w/o Luddy stepping up when Joey went down last year the Reds may not have even made the playoffs!


    *he was visable when he tried to make that catch with his nutz and GAVE L.A. the NLCS series a few yrs back
    At this point it doesn't appear that you are even trying to read others posts'.

    Quit twisting words. Your response has essentially nothing to do with the post you quoted.

  8. #126
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magdal View Post
    4 times as valuable??? Are you joking? MH has been all but INVISABLE IN THE POST SEASON*, And w/o Luddy stepping up when Joey went down last year the Reds may not have even made the playoffs!


    *he was visable when he tried to make that catch with his nutz and GAVE L.A. the NLCS series a few yrs back
    Without Holliday last year the Cards definitely would not have made the playoffs. That's not even debatable.

    But, I have no idea what that has to do with anything we were talking about.

    You dislike Holliday for illogical reasons. Admit it and move on rather than continuing to dig this hole.

  9. #127
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Magdal is an example of the Kevin Slaten minions that troll the STL boards with a innate hate for TLR and anyone who makes over league minimum. Nothing new here.

    He's looking as silly as the guy in the Sun Deck saying Molina is overrated.
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  10. #128
    Member Magdal's Avatar
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    At this point it doesn't appear that you are even trying to read others posts'.

    Quit twisting words. Your response has essentially nothing to do with the post you quoted.
    I don't intend to respond to each and every comment made. But if you are refering to the crack made that MH "sure stopped the Wainwright and Molina signings"....out of left field bull.

    I said that MH was preventing the signing of top notch free agents, not re-signing invaluable teamates. Big difference.
    Last edited by Magdal; 05-25-2013 at 02:12 AM.

  11. #129
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magdal View Post
    I'm going to make another guess, one that you can go look up: Matt makes 5 times the money Luddy does. Is he 5 times more valuable? I really would like a heads up trade. See how you would like to see all that dough on a guy that leads YOUR team in nothing. (exept pocket money)

    It's Holliay's money that keeps the Cards from ever signing a top free agent. They have been VERY fortunate with 2 ailing, ageing guys in Berkman and Beltran. Not so much with Furcal. These aquisitions are gambles for big money, but not Cliff Lee or Prince Fielder money, for example.

    If you had Holliday you would not have been able to re-sign Votto! Think about that folks!
    Your argument is flawed. This year, Holliday makes more than 8 times more in salary than Luddy. However, next year that figures drops to a little more than twice what Ludwick makes. In 2015, Ludwicks option will be picked up for 9 million, which makes it less than twice as much as Holliday makes. If the option is not picked up, the buyout is 4.5 million, which is why it will be picked up.

    Granted, if you want to go dollar for dollar in value, Ludwick is the better bargain. But he is not, nor ever was, the player that Holliday is. There's a reason he has been with 7 teams in the last 4 years.

    Matt Holliday has played less than 4 full seasons with the Redbirds. St.Louis has been to the playoffs 3 times during that period, resulting in 1 pennant and 1 World Series championship.

    Fangraphs statistics has shown over that period that Holliday has actually out performed his contract. He's been a bargain.

    Finally, the Cardinals aren't precluded from signing a top free agent. They signed Beltran less than 2 years ago, just not for top FA money. Beltran took less for the best chance for a ring.

    If you want to look at contracts, look at Votto's. In 2016, the Reds will owe him 20 million, 22 million in 2017. After that, 25 million a year until 2023, at which point, Joey will be 39. What big FAs will you guys be signing in the near future ?

    In contrast, Allen Craig just signed a 5 year contract for 31 million. In the last 2 years of that contract, 2016 and '17, Craig will make 9 and 11 million dollars. He will be 32 in 2017.

    Granted, Craig is not the player Votto is (at least as of yet), but just like Luddy is a better value than Holliday, Craig is a better value than Votto.

    Finally, the Cardinals no longer sign big ticket FAs. Their philosophy is to develop their own players and either sign them cheap while buying out their arbitration years (much like Tampa and other small market teams), or they let them walk if some other team offers more than they feel that player is worth (Pujols and Lohse, although they let Lohse walk because they didn't have room for him).

    Let's see how many FAs Cincinnati signs this winter, including their own, then we'll talk about responsible payroll management.

    By the way, the Cardinals have over 40 million coming off the books after this year just from Furcal, Carpenter, Westbrook and Beltran.
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  12. #130
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redlegs View Post
    We lost our starting leftfielder and cleanup hitter for the 1st half of the season. Our ace has gone down for a few weeks. Bruce hasn't done anything yet. The Cardinals are playing outstanding baseball and yet we only find ourselves 1.5 games out. I think we're sitting sweet. Deep down, St. Louis fans have to feel the same.
    St.Louis fans do feel the same.

    FWIW, the Cardinals have lost 3 of their starters (including their ace, 1 other for the year), their starting SS and their closer (both for the season).

    Injuries happen.
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  13. #131
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Quote Originally Posted by smixsell View Post
    Looks like his "period of ineffectiveness" (in this case TOTAL INEFFECTIVENESS) just got a WHOLE LOT LARGER this season, as I predicted.

    Sorry I don't have the time or the inclination to "explain" to you how I knew. Some of us actually do have the power to draw good conclusions from observation and don't feel like taking the time to compile the advanced stats to prove them to everyone in the entire world.
    When you're done patting yourself on the back, tell us how you knew about Cueto.

    I will admit, predicting that a player who was shut down with shoulder problems last year and chose not to have surgery, only to hurt the shoulder this year was brilliant.

    I'm sorry you don't " feel like taking the time " to explain your rationale. I hope I'm not taking up too much of your time if you are reading this, sharp folks like you usually have better things to do.
    Last edited by SpiritofStLouis; 05-25-2013 at 03:15 AM. Reason: additional taxt
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  14. #132
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Kozma does not give the cards "solid D". His range is exceptionally bad, as he seldolm gets to any ball hit up the middle. And if they are asking him to just hit .220 (and I'm not sure what you really mean by that), it's becuase they know he sucks and aren't expecting any more from him.

    Just becuase everyone has such low expectations of Kozma doesn't somehow elevate him becuase he delivers on such low expectations.
    Kozma is what he is, a # 8 hitter with an average glove. Still, he is batting .260, has 17 RBI, 16 R and a handful of big hits.

    Yes, his range is limited, but he makes plays on the balls he can get to. 1 error.

    Your SS is a #8 hitter with very good range. Still, he is batting .230, has 23 RBI, 20 R and, I'm assuming, a couple big hits.

    Yes, he has very good range, and has 3 errors.

    Seems pretty even to me, all things considered.

    Wait, what ? He's your number 2 hitter ? C'mon, really ?

    Oh, that's funny. Maybe we should compare him to our # 2 hitter, Carlos Beltran.

    Nah, better not.

    I guess maybe Cozart is a # 8 hitter batting 2nd. Is that good ?
    Last edited by SpiritofStLouis; 05-25-2013 at 03:36 AM.
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  15. #133
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofStLouis View Post
    I guess maybe Cozart is a # 8 hitter batting 2nd. Is that good ?
    I guess it's good enough to score 7 more runs to date than a team that has Sir Carlos Beltran at number two. One could only wonder how many more runs that the Reds would score if the lineup was actually constructed logically.
    Last edited by RedsLvr; 05-25-2013 at 04:09 AM.

  16. #134
    Arbiter of Good Taste OGB's Avatar
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    Magdal is an example of the Kevin Slaten minions that troll the STL boards with a innate hate for TLR and anyone who makes over league minimum. Nothing new here.

    He's looking as silly as the guy in the Sun Deck saying Molina is overrated.
    I absolutely can't stand Yadier Molina and his trashy neck tattoo, but I think he's a top 3 position player in the NL and you can make the argument he's #1, especially with the way he's trending. Over the last 3 full seasons his HR, OBP, and OPS numbers are:
    6 .329 .671
    14 .349 .814
    22 .373 .874
    He also anchors the top pitching staff in the league, playing almost 140 games a year. He is the top defensive player at a premium defensive position. He also provides elite offense at a position with a long history of being a non premium offensive position.
    I may not be fast, but I sure am slow.

  17. #135
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: More talent: Reds or Cardinals?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magdal View Post
    I don't intend to respond to each and every comment made. But if you are refering to the crack made that MH "sure stopped the Wainwright and Molina signings"....out of left field bull.

    I said that MH was preventing the signing of top notch free agents, not re-signing invaluable teamates. Big difference.
    Not a Cards fan, but they win every year and have the best system in the world for producing reinforcements. Why in the world would they spend willy-nilly when they don't need to? Seems they did spend when it was needed. Carlos Beltran for $18 Million per year sounds like spending.
    Last edited by mth123; 05-25-2013 at 09:37 AM.
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