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Thread: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

  1. #181
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    That's one of the big knocks against RC if I remember correct. I haven't dug into SABR stuff in years, but wasn't there some thought that RC overrated great hitters because the formula essentially places them in a context of themselves instead of an average lineup? I'm guessing that's why the two numbers don't align.
    Yep, it overvalued players with high OBP and high SLG. Someone came up with a formula that tries to counter that, but it's really complicated and involves fractions and stuff. And even that just got the numbers closer, not exact.

    For the record, I really like the RC stat and use it all the time. But it's still theoretical and should be used with a grain of salt, like all theoretical stats.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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  3. #182
    The Future is Now Ghosts of 1990's Avatar
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    AL
    Miguel Cabrera
    Evan Longoria
    Yu Darvish
    Robinson Cano
    Chris Davis

    NL
    Justin Upton
    Shin Soo Choo
    Bryce Harper
    Paul Goldschmidt
    Jean Segura
    2009 Attendance Record: 3-5 2010 Attendance Record: 2-9
    2011 Attendance Record: 3-4 2012 Attendance Record: 3-4
    2013 Attendance Record: 5-2 2014 Attendance Record: 3-0

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    Wonderful Monds (05-18-2013)

  5. #183
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    But that's true of every stat. No stat tells us the whole story. That doesn't mean no stat should be trusted. It just means no stat alone should be used to evaluate a player.
    Absolutely agree with you. I would just maintain that RBI's tell a story so partial as to be dismissed from my witness stand. If you want to listen to their yarns, by all means go ahead. I just don't want them deciding any major portion of my MVP case.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  6. #184
    Who wants a mustache ride Ohayou's Avatar
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    AL
    Miguel Cabrera
    Evan Longoria
    Chris Davis
    Manny Machado
    Dustin Pedroia

    NL
    Paul Goldschmidt
    Shin-Soo Choo
    Justin Upton
    Troy Tulowitzki
    Carlos Gomez
    Last edited by Ohayou; 05-18-2013 at 10:17 AM.
    Choo got it, dude.

  7. #185
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Let me further note that I like RBI, because as 757690 noted, they do represent actual runs scored by the team and you can't win without scoring. RBI are a good thing to have. But I do think they are a can be indicator of a players value.
    Sure. This is the nuance that is lost though. If you have RBI and other things that make up for its deficiencies, then RBI can be helpful -- part of the picture. But once you add in those other things, runs, stolen bases, etc. why not just look at the more well-rounded stats to begin with?
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  8. #186
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Sure. This is the nuance that is lost though. If you have RBI and other things that make up for its deficiencies, then RBI can be helpful -- part of the picture. But once you add in those other things, runs, stolen bases, etc. why not just look at the more well-rounded stats to begin with?
    But you can say that of every stat, even OPS+. Even WAR. They all have deficiencies and issues, and none, not even OPS+, not even WAR, can be used singularly to tell us how valuable a player truely was to his team.

    To me RBI's is one of the more important stats in understanding how valuable a player was to his team, because they directly measure the most valuable commodity in baseball, runs. They tell us how many runs this player directly, actually helped produce for his team.

    One of the big problems that some people unfairly have with RBI's, is that there is debate over how much skill is involved in accumulating RBI's. That debate clouds some people's judgement over RBI's value. It shouldn't.

    It could be that zero skill is involved in accumulating RBI's (we know that's not the case,) but that doesn't effect the value that a RBI has in helping teams win games. It seems that some people get confused and conclude that because they believe that accumulating RBI's isn't much of a skill, that they must believe that it doesn't have much value. That's a false conclusion.

    Btw, the same mentality exists for some people about saves.

    The fact is that regardless of how much skill is involved in accumulating RBI's, they are extremely valuable in helping a team win games. In fact, there's not much else that is more valuable.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  9. #187
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post

    The fact is that regardless of how much skill is involved in accumulating RBI's, they are extremely valuable in helping a team win games. In fact, there's not much else that is more valuable.
    The problem is correctly assigning value to them though. Giving one person full credit for it is a problem unless they hit a solo home run.

  10. #188
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    But you can say that of every stat, even OPS+. Even WAR. They all have deficiencies and issues, and none, not even OPS+, not even WAR, can be used singularly to tell us how valuable a player truely was to his team.

    To me RBI's is one of the more important stats in understanding how valuable a player was to his team, because they directly measure the most valuable commodity in baseball, runs. They tell us how many runs this player directly, actually helped produce for his team.
    OPS+ and WAR aren't perfect, but they paint a far, far more complete picture than do RBI's. If no one is on base for a player to drive in, that doesn't mean he is less skilled as a hitter -- it just means he plays for a bad team.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  11. #189
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Guy hits a home run has done his job. Someone being on base ahead of him is 100% out of his control
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."


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