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Thread: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

  1. #16
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Percentages of runs batted in doesn't mean much in terms of being most valuable.
    I think it's a better way of measuring the individual contribution outside of one's position in the batting order.

    Actual runs driven in, the counting stat are what matters.

    RBI's might not correlate to skill, but they sure as heck are valuable.
    The "Runs" portion of "RBI" is the valuable part.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

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  3. #17
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    Where would we be in the division without BP driving in all those runs? It works both ways, and all three deserve credit.
    BP hits others in 21.6% of the time (134/29) which is good. Allen Craig does it 26.4% of the time (106/28.) Do you think if Craig had BP's opportunities, he'd convert at least four more baserunners to runs?

    I mean, if one believes that driving in runs is a skill separate from hitting, doesn't it mean something that Craig converts 6% more of his opportunities than BP?
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  4. #18
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    BP hits others in 21.6% of the time (134/29) which is good. Allen Craig does it 26.4% of the time (106/28.) Do you think if Craig had BP's opportunities, he'd convert at least four more baserunners to runs?

    I mean, if one believes that driving in runs is a skill separate from hitting, doesn't it mean something that Craig converts 6% more of his opportunities than BP?
    Sorry, but I can't put much stock into any formula that concludes a slick fielding 2nd Baseman with 130+ RBI's isn't an MVP candidate.
    "I talked to an advance scout that told me if Joey Votto and Albert Pujols were on the same team he'd advise his team to do the unthinkable...pitch around Votto to get to Pujols." - Buster Olney, ESPN

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  6. #19
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    BP hits others in 21.6% of the time (134/29) which is good. Allen Craig does it 26.4% of the time (106/28.) Do you think if Craig had BP's opportunities, he'd convert at least four more baserunners to runs?

    I mean, if one believes that driving in runs is a skill separate from hitting, doesn't it mean something that Craig converts 6% more of his opportunities than BP?
    If Craig was a gold glove 2B, he absolutely belongs in the MVP discussion. But he's a lousy fielding 1B, so he doesn't.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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  8. #20
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Miguel Cabrera AL

    Buster Posey NL

    Looks familiar but I believe they are that good and that valuable to their teams. Both are the best hitters on division leading teams.

  9. #21
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    I don't know whether Brandon belongs in the conversation for MVP but unless he falls off a cliff and breaks a leg, I'll bet he doesn't get snubbed for the All-Star team this year.

    Rem
    "For Reds fans, by Reds fans" Learn it, love it, live it.

  10. #22
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Remember, it's most valuable player, not the best player. Phillips absolutely belongs in the conversation at this point. And I'd include Harper before I included Braun.
    There is no argument in which the best player isn't also more valuable than everyone else.

  11. #23
    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    Votto's in the conversation, but DatDude isn't? Do any Reds fans think Joey has had a better first quarter than BP has? I'm not knocking Joey, as he's doing what Joey does, but BP has been outstanding. OPS isn't the be all-end all of stats. Might as well give the MVP every year to the guy who walks the most. I realize my thinking is somewhat old school, and even antiquated in this day and age, but a 2nd Bagger who knocks in 130+ runs and is defensively superior to everyone else at his position, is a serious MVP candidate, IMO.
    A million times yes. It's not even close. Better Avg, OBP, SLG, and leads him in wOBA by a MILE.

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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Looking at who has simply meant the most to their team, I'd have to give Choo very strong consideration.

  14. #25
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Carlos Gomez and Evan Longoria.

    Gomez has the 2nd highest wOBA in the NL (behind Choo) and is a plus defensive CF.

    The AL is much closer, but I went with Longo as the best combined value in terms of offense and defense. Trout and Machado are right there in that argument and Cabrera's bat certainly has him in the conversation too.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 05-16-2013 at 12:13 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  15. #26
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    Sorry, but I can't put much stock into any formula that concludes a slick fielding 2nd Baseman with 130+ RBI's isn't an MVP candidate.
    With a sub .290 BA, a .330 OB% and a .470 slg%??

    Andre Dawson is often derided for winning the 1987 MVP with this line:

    .287/.328/.568/.896

    Jimmy Rollins for this:

    .296/.344/.531/.875

    Phillips doesn't even make the top ten at this juncture, and that doesn't color his game poorly at all.
    Last edited by westofyou; 05-16-2013 at 12:25 PM.

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  17. #27
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    A million times yes. It's not even close. Better Avg, OBP, SLG, and leads him in wOBA by a MILE.
    The game is also about preventing runs. Unlike the wimpy NFL, MLB demands that it's position players play both offense and defense.

    Still think Votto is more valuable, but when you toss in defense (and base running), it's pretty close.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  18. #28
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    With a sub .290 BA, a .330 OB% and a .470 slg%??

    Andre Dawson is often derided for winning the 1987 MVP with this line:

    .287/.328/.568/.896

    Jimmy Rollins for this:

    .296/.344/.531/.875

    Phillips doesn't even make the top ten at this juncture, and that doesn't color his game poorly at all.
    This kind of thinking is why I will never ever ever completely make the transition to the sabremetrics world. When the best fielding second baseman in the game, on pace for 130+ RBI, isn't considering a top ten MVP candidate, something is seriously flawed with the system.

    For the record, Dawson and Rollins won because there weren't any better candidates those years. Sometimes it happens that way.
    "I talked to an advance scout that told me if Joey Votto and Albert Pujols were on the same team he'd advise his team to do the unthinkable...pitch around Votto to get to Pujols." - Buster Olney, ESPN

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  20. #29
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Bailey View Post
    A million times yes. It's not even close. Better Avg, OBP, SLG, and leads him in wOBA by a MILE.
    You should have just said "Joey has more walks".
    "I talked to an advance scout that told me if Joey Votto and Albert Pujols were on the same team he'd advise his team to do the unthinkable...pitch around Votto to get to Pujols." - Buster Olney, ESPN

  21. #30
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    Why not? He leads the league in RBI (on pace for about 135) and he's the best 2nd Baseman in the game. How is he not at least on the list?
    1) Because there's A LOT more to offensive production than RBI.

    2) RBI? If that's your criteria for MVP, it's probably not worth having an argument with those of us who are more sabermetrically inclined.

    3) No, he's not. He's easily behind Cano, Pedroia and Kinsler. And this year he's comparable to Matt Carpenter, Jose Altuve, Marco Scutaro, etc. Though probably not from your perspective....
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.


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