1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

[dougdirt]

This kind of thinking is why I will never ever ever completely make the transition to the sabremetrics world. When the best fielding second baseman in the game, on pace for 130+ RBI, isn't considering a top ten MVP candidate, something is seriously flawed with the system.

For the record, Dawson and Rollins won because there weren't any better candidates those years. Sometimes it happens that way.

There were a plethora of options the year that Dawson won. Jack Clark, Tony Gwynn, Dale Murphy, Tim Raines, Daryl Strawberry, Mike Schmidt and a few others were flat out outstanding. Heck, Tony Gwynn hit .370, slugged 500+ and stole 50+ bases.

The year that Rollins won Pujols, Wright, Utley and Chipper Jones all hit .320+/.410+/.545+. There were absolutely other options.

As for why a guy like Phillips isn't in the MVP race in the minds of plenty of people is this: RBI is not something that is a pure product of the player accruing them. Average, on-base percentage, slugging, defense, base running.... those things are completely dependent on the player at hand. Phillips is elite at one of those things and solid at the rest of them.

[RichRed]

This kind of thinking is why I will never ever ever completely make the transition to the sabremetrics world. When the best fielding second baseman in the game, on pace for 130+ RBI, isn't considering a top ten MVP candidate, something is seriously flawed with the system.

For the record, Dawson and Rollins won because there weren't any better candidates those years. Sometimes it happens that way.

Well except for possibly Jack Clark, Darryl Strawberry, Tim Raines, Tony Gwynn, Mike Schmidt, Dale Murphy, or our very own Eric Davis.

EDIT: Doug beat me to it.

[New York Red]

1) 2) RBI? If that's your criteria for MVP, it's probably not worth having an argument with those of us who are more sabermetrically inclined.

Wow, I guess you put me in my place.

Some of you are way too full of yourselves. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned Brandon's defense numerous times in this thread, so, no, RBI isn't his only value to the 2013 Reds.

Sabremetrically inclined? LOL, now that's funny.

[Superdude]

2) RBI? If that's your criteria for MVP, it's probably not worth having an argument with those of us who are more sabermetrically inclined.

Unless the writers have been replaced with a think-tank of Bill James and Brian Kenny, RBI's are a criteria for MVP.

[dougdirt]

Unless the writers have been replaced with a think-tank of Bill James and Brian Kenny, RBI's are a criteria for MVP.

The argument is more so that they shouldn't be rather than if they are.

[New York Red]

Unless the writers have been replaced with a think-tank of Bill James and Brian Kenny, RBI's are a criteria for MVP.

Things the Sabre Gods have taught me in my brief time on ORG:

1) Wins don't matter to a starting pitcher
2) RBI don't matter to a cleanup hitter

I've yet to hear any actual players express those opinions, but it's the gospel according to ORG, so it must be true.

[Bumstead]

Don't forget the year Barry Larkin won MVP...

[kaldaniels]

RBI's do show what happened. They don't have a use projecting the future though.

The Reds needed someone to knock in Votto and Choo once Ludwick went down. Phillips has admirably stepped up to the plate and done so. To me, that is valuable, though I wouldn't hand him the MVP, even the team MVP. I believe that is Choo.

I just want to make the case that RBI's should be looked at, and considered case-by-case when talking MVP. Now in BP's case, he is the beneficiary of batting behind the top-2 OBP guys in the league. That's pretty simple.

But if a guy over the course of a season, comes to the plate with an average number of runners on base, and knocks in an extraordinary amount of them...That should be considered, as that is what happened. As mentioned, it says nothing about skill level or projects forward, but it happened, and is valuable.

[Homer Bailey]

You should have just said "Joey has more walks".

Right. Instead of pointing out that not only does Votto get on base at a much, MUCH better rate than Phillips, he also hits better than him.

But yeah, all he does is walk more than Phillips.

[New York Red]

Right. Instead of pointing out that not only does Votto get on base at a much, MUCH better rate than Phillips, he also hits better than him.

But yeah, all he does is walk more than Phillips.

Of course he hits better, but that isn't what's driving up his OBP, SLG, OPS, etc. Joey has five more hits than Brandon, and three fewer XBHs. The difference is the walks. Nobody is arguing BP is the better hitter. That would be ridiculous. I just think BP should be on the list of candidates at the quarter mark. But on this site, if you don't go along 100% with the Sabre Gods, it's like dumping meat into a shark tank. Have a good day, sir.

[Homer Bailey]

Of course he hits better, but that isn't what's driving up his OBP, SLG, OPS, etc. Joey has five more hits than Brandon, and three fewer XBHs. The difference is the walks. Nobody is arguing BP is the better hitter. That would be ridiculous. I just think BP should be on the list of candidates at the quarter mark. But on this site, if you don't go along 100% with the Sabre Gods, it's like dumping meat into a shark tank. Have a good day, sir.

There's a difference between refusing to accept "saber stats" and saying things that just aren't true. The walks are NOT the difference. Joey is hitting at a .327 clip, Brandon at a .286 clip. Even if Joey Votto had ZERO WALKS, he would be getting on base at a .327 clip. Brandon's OBP is .329! So what you said is just flat out not true.

You're also now moving the goal posts. I was responding to your question of "Do any Reds fans think Joey has had a better first quarter than BP has?". Now you're saying, "I just think BP should be on the list of candidates at the quarter mark."

[dougdirt]

But on this site, if you don't go along 100% with the Sabre Gods, it's like dumping meat into a shark tank. Have a good day, sir.

I don't agree with this completely.

There is clearly a "saber" slant on this site, just like there is in the actual game when it comes to front offices. It is there because it is incredibly valuable in evaluating the value of players and the guys running teams know that.

But, there are certainly scouting oriented posts that are well accepted here.

What isn't generally "accepted" are "stat" arguments that can't be backed up.

[westofyou]

This kind of thinking is why I will never ever ever completely make the transition to the sabremetrics world. When the best fielding second baseman in the game, on pace for 130+ RBI, isn't considering a top ten MVP candidate, something is seriously flawed with the system.

For the record, Dawson and Rollins won because there weren't any better candidates those years. Sometimes it happens that way.

Sabermetric world?

I posted slash lines, batting average is older than the National League, getting on base has always been part of the game, hitting the ball hard has always been valued since the pitcher had a six foot box to contain him and the plate was square.

You might want to consider the goal posts you're moving with your last sentence as well.

[New York Red]

Now you're saying, "I just think BP should be on the list of candidates at the quarter mark."

Ummm ... I've been making that same point the entire thread. It got off track, but not at my doing. As for who has had a better first quarter of the season, I still think Brandon has, but only marginally. I look at Joey's HR, 2B and RBI totals and obviously see they aren't usual Joey Votto totals. I think he would say the same thing. On the other hand, with Ludwick getting injured early and BP having to fill in in the cleanup spot, for him to be leading the NL is RBI is huge. Yes, Choo and Votto getting on base so much is a big reason for that, but it's still BP driving them in.

I enjoy these exchanges with you guys, and I value your opinions and discussions. I just come from an old school world's view that still sees a lot of value in the old school stats like RBIs and Wins. If that makes me a dinosaur, I can live with it.

[New York Red]

Sabermetric world?

I posted slash lines, batting average is older than the National League, getting on base has always been part of the game, hitting the ball hard has always been valued since the pitcher had a six foot box to contain him and the plate was square.

You might want to consider the goal posts you're moving with your last sentence as well.

I was wrong about Dawson and Rollins. That doesn't mean there are any goal posts being moved. My memory apparently isn't as sharp as it once was. My apologies.

Is it game time yet?