1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

[Bumstead]

I don't agree with this completely.

There is clearly a "saber" slant on this site, just like there is in the actual game when it comes to front offices. It is there because it is incredibly valuable in evaluating the value of players and the guys running teams know that.

But, there are certainly scouting oriented posts that are well accepted here.

What isn't generally "accepted" are "stat" arguments that can't be backed up by metrics.

there you go...forgot to finish your sentence. I think New York Red's perspective is spot on. If you are a traditionalist as far as stats and baseballs goes, other posters treat you like you just graduated 3rd grade and only have 2 teeth...being on the metric side, Doug, that may be harder for you to see. And truly you are not one of the guys that tend to act in that manner consistently. But to an extent, traditionalists are looked down upon here which can be quite frustrating...to the traditionalists like me anyway.

[*BaseClogger*]

Things the Sabre Gods have taught me in my brief time on ORG:

1) Wins don't matter to a starting pitcher
2) RBI don't matter to a cleanup hitter

Correct!

[Homer Bailey]

Ummm ... I've been making that same point the entire thread. It got off track, but not at my doing. As for who has had a better first quarter of the season, I still think Brandon has, but only marginally. I look at Joey's HR, 2B and RBI totals and obviously see they aren't usual Joey Votto totals. I think he would say the same thing. On the other hand, with Ludwick getting injured early and BP having to fill in in the cleanup spot, for him to be leading the NL is RBI is huge. Yes, Choo and Votto getting on base so much is a big reason for that, but it's still BP driving them in.

I enjoy these exchanges with you guys, and I value your opinions and discussions. I just come from an old school world's view that still sees a lot of value in the old school stats like RBIs and Wins. If that makes me a dinosaur, I can live with it.

Look man, I directly quoted your quote. You asked if anyone thought Votto was having a better season than Phillips. I raised my hand, and I told you exactly why I thought so. You responded with completely inaccurate information, and actually, none of this has anything to do with "saber stats".

[RedEye]

there you go...forgot to finish your sentence. I think New York Red's perspective is spot on. If you are a traditionalist as far as stats and baseballs goes, other posters treat you like you just graduated 3rd grade and only have 2 teeth...being on the metric side, Doug, that may be harder for you to see. And truly you are not one of the guys that tend to act in that manner consistently. But to an extent, traditionalists are looked down upon here which can be quite frustrating...to the traditionalists like me anyway.

I actually think this is a false distinction. Metrics are, most basically, measurements. Whether we are "traditional" or "sabermetric" in our affiliations, we all use some sort of metric to talk about baseball. It's just that traditionalists tend to want to use the stuff on the back of a baseball card while sabermetricians want to look for ways to measure that more accurately reflect performance.

It's really not that complicated to see why some of the baseball card stats are only telling part of the story. You can say that you just aren't interested in that story, but plugging your ears and shouting louder generally doesn't help.

[thorn]

There's a difference between refusing to accept "saber stats" and saying things that just aren't true. The walks are NOT the difference. Joey is hitting at a .327 clip, Brandon at a .286 clip. Even if Joey Votto had ZERO WALKS, he would be getting on base at a .327 clip. Brandon's OBP is .329! So what you said is just flat out not true.

Not real sure I follow you here, you can't predict what will happen in those new AB's, he could have an OBP less than a BA, correct?

For the record, I don't think BP is an MVP candidate either, but lets don't down play what he means to this team for the sake of trying to prove a point. He may be the most valuable player on this team, just not the best.

[Bumstead]

I actually think this is a false distinction. Metrics are, most basically, measurements. Whether we are "traditional" or "sabermetric" in our affiliations, we all use some sort of metric to talk about baseball. It's just that traditionalists tend to want to use the stuff on the back of a baseball card while sabermetricians want to look for ways to measure that more accurately reflect performance.

And there is exactly what I am talking about. A backhanded insult that us traditionalists are not supposed to notice. I agree that you believe that deeper metrics give you a more accurate view of a player's performance but it doesn't mean those of us who enjoy stats like wins and RBI's should be insulted for it. I'm not a complete traditionalist, somewhere in the middle, but I do look at traditional stats and so do the players and managers and the GM's.

Bum

[bigredmechanism]

Its not necessarily his stats. Although leading the league in RBIs should stand for something to even the most sabermetrically-inclined baseball fan. Of course the stat is dependent on your teammates getting on base and putting you in the position to succeed. But runners on base hardly ever score if the batter doesn't execute. Brandon executes. Obviously I watch most of the Reds games like the rest of you, and time and time again this season, Brandon has come through with big hits in the clutch and run saving defense. Moreso than any player on this team so far, if you ask me.

Clearly BP's numbers won't look like those of a Choo or a Votto, especially as the season gets older. But forget the numbers for one second and consider the actual games. He's made more of an impact than any other position player on this team this season, except for maybe Choo. That said, he could go cold for a month and Votto finds his power again, and this entire argument becomes moot.

Perhaps there are other players on other teams (of whom I don't watch regularly) that play a similar game, and also deserve adulation. Maybe BP will cool off and end up having a standard BP season (which is excellent). But at this point in the season, he should be in the conversation. My opinion, of course. I could be wrong and you are free to disagree with it.

[Homer Bailey]

Not real sure I follow you here, you can't predict what will happen in those new AB's, he could have an OBP less than a BA, correct?

For the record, I don't think BP is an MVP candidate either, but lets don't down play what he means to this team for the sake of trying to prove a point. He may be the most valuable player on this team, just not the best.

You're right, he could. I was responding to the claim that the walks were making up the difference between Votto and Phillips, which we know for a fact is not true. Subtract out all the walks that Votto has had and he still gets on base at basically the same clip as Phillips.

I do look at traditional stats and so do the players and managers and the GM's.

Bum

The players, yes. The GM's (at least, the good ones), will never ever ever make a decision based on back of the baseball card stats.

Its not necessarily his stats. Although leading the league in RBIs should stand for something to even the most sabermetrically-inclined baseball fan. Of course the stat is dependent on your teammates getting on base and putting you in the position to succeed. But runners on base hardly ever score if the batter doesn't execute. Brandon executes. Obviously I watch most of the Reds games like the rest of you, and time and time again this season, Brandon has come through with big hits in the clutch and run saving defense. Moreso than any player on this team so far, if you ask me.

Clearly BP's numbers won't look like those of a Choo or a Votto, especially as the season gets older. But forget the numbers for one second and consider the actual games. He's made more of an impact than any other position player on this team this season, except for maybe Choo. That said, he could go cold for a month and Votto finds his power again, and this entire argument becomes moot.

Perhaps there are other players on other teams (of whom I don't watch regularly) that play a similar game, and also deserve adulation. Maybe BP will cool off and end up having a standard BP season (which is excellent). But at this point in the season, he should be in the conversation. My opinion, of course. I could be wrong and you are free to disagree with it.

I don't mean to downplay what BP has done. He has stepped up in the 4 hole nicely, and come through with RISP at a very high rate. I just don't understand why he gets all the credit from some people for driving in runs, when in fact that RBI total is extremely correlated to the amount of times the guys in front of him get on base. The value in creating runs is not soley driven by the guy that drives them in, which is why the saber minded people like to look at weighted runs created rather than run totals or RBI totals. Those numbers will tell you that Choo and Votto have had a lot more to do with the Reds offensive success than Phillips has.

I agree that you need guys to drive in runs, and Phillips has done that very well so far. I'm not hating on Phillips performance so far at all. But if Votto were injured, and we still had Stubbs at the top of the order, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. That's the entire point.

[Bumstead]

The players, yes. The GM's (at least, the good ones), will never ever ever make a decision based on back of the baseball card stats.

No, not completely based on them, but they will use them to an extent. They will certainly acknowledge them more than many on this site.

[Homer Bailey]

No, not completely based on them, but they will use them to an extent. They will certainly acknowledge them more than many on this site.

What do these stats tell them that advanced stats do not?

[Bumstead]

What do these stats tell them that advanced stats do not?

If by "advanced stats" you mean more in "depth" metrics, I don't know that they would tell them much of anything different, but they certainly look at them. Of course, it would depend on which "non-advanced stats" you were referring to, as that was a pretty non-specific question. Not going to argue that GM's don't use more in-depth metrics when evaluating players, just saying they look at all the stats, not just the in-depth metrics.

Bum

[klw]

Having looked at some of the Cardinal stats I could see some support going to Molina and Beltran.

[Homer Bailey]

If by "advanced stats" you mean more in "depth" metrics, I don't know that they would tell them much of anything different, but they certainly look at them. Of course, it would depend on which "non-advanced stats" you were referring to, as that was a pretty non-specific question. Not going to argue that GM's don't use more in-depth metrics when evaluating players, just saying they look at all the stats, not just the in-depth metrics.

Bum

Ok. In what scenario would a GM use HR, RBI, Avg over OBP/SLG/OPS/wOBA/WAR?

What do HR/RBI/Avg tell us about that player that the ratio stats do not?

[New York Red]

[westofyou]

"Would you value any monetary system that valued a penny the same as it valued a nickle, dime or even a quarter? I would think not, then why would lean so much on batting average as the measure of a players worth on offense?"

FC Lane 1917