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Thread: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

  1. #121
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Why is it defense is given so much consideration when discussing Cabrera and Trout, but basically ignored when discussing the value of Brandon Phillips?

    "I talked to an advance scout that told me if Joey Votto and Albert Pujols were on the same team he'd advise his team to do the unthinkable...pitch around Votto to get to Pujols." - Buster Olney, ESPN

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  3. #122
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Trout had 60 fewer at bats in the season than Cabrera did. That he arrived late certainly does play into it a tiny bit, but Trout had a "full seasons" worth of at bats in 2012 for most players.

    60 extra outstanding at bats from Cabrera don't make up enough of the difference between being an ever so slightly lesser hitter during that season, a drastically worse defender and a drastically worse base runner.
    Yeah, I was only talking about the hitting aspect. It is mentioned that they were about equal (give or take a little) with the bat last year. But I think Cabrera's extra playing time gives him the advantage in the hitting department when comparing the two, regardless of whether Trout "got a season's at-bats". Not a big thing, as I said I would have voted Trout.

  4. #123
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Just seems odd to say that the guy who won the triple crown was not a better hitter than the guy that did not. I am not a big advanced stats guy, but it is hard for me to buy that Trout was a better hitter than Cabrera last year.

  5. #124
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by reds700 View Post
    Just seems odd to say that the guy who won the triple crown was not a better hitter than the guy that did not. I am not a big advanced stats guy, but it is hard for me to buy that Trout was a better hitter than Cabrera last year.
    It sounded odd to me too. But then I acknowledged that the Triple Crown stats just might not be the best way to judge a hitter.

  6. #125
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    I'm assuming you're just being a jerk, but it seems obvious to everyone else that I was using Brandon's RBI total at the quarter point of the season to show what kind of MVP candidate he'd be at that rate for a full season. I know he won't end up with 130 RBI, but that wasn't the point. I never said he was "the" MVP. I only said he should be on the list of candidates at the quarter mark. According to some of you, I guess he wasn't of any value to the team last night either.

    It seems that this site is the only place I find baseball fans who discredit Brandon's season thus far. Is there another cleanup hitter in the game who is driving in runs and playing defense at the level BP is? There can't be many.
    No clue on the bolded. Maybe.

    But, respectfully, you are missing the point, I think, that people are making. Phillip's RBI production is wonderful, but also team dependent. Choo and Votto with that nice OBP giving him plenty of chances. But that happenstance may not be the best argument as to his value when it comes to hitting.

  7. #126
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    I'm assuming you're just being a jerk,
    I wouldn't assume that.

    but it seems obvious to everyone else that I was using Brandon's RBI total at the quarter point of the season to show what kind of MVP candidate he'd be at that rate for a full season. I know he won't end up with 130 RBI, but that wasn't the point. I never said he was "the" MVP.I only said he should be on the list of candidates at the quarter mark. According to some of you, I guess he wasn't of any value to the team last night either.
    I have no idea what the latter has to do with the former. Nor am I interested in arguing on behalf of "some of you." To me, it's unwise to amalgamate "Redszone" as a person and fight your arguments against "it."

    It seems that this site is the only place I find baseball fans who discredit Brandon's season thus far.
    I haven't seen anyone discrediting him.

    Is there another cleanup hitter in the game who is driving in runs and playing defense at the level BP is? There can't be many.
    I've basically made three points:

    1. To me, "driving in runs" isn't a different skill than "hitting the ball."

    2. However, to those who believe RBI is it's own skill, isn't the percentage of baserunners turned into run more interesting than the counting stat which is mostly a product of lineup? I only found out about that a few years ago and thought it was a really interesting point.

    3. And then I picked who I thought would be MVP up to this point. It wouldn't be BP who's not even in my top 20 NL players or top 3 NL 2B. He would be on my PVP (Pretty Valuable Player) list though.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  8. #127
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    To condense a player's entire season into one number (i.e. OPS+) is not grounds for an MVP award. It is good, however, as a snapshot of that player's season. For example, in 2010 Votto had a lower OPS+ than Pujols. We're all glad the voters didn'y rely on this one number to dish out the award.

    For the sake of 2012, had the Angels made the playoffs Trout would have had a much better case for the award. But his team didn't get in, and so all those juicy stats were worth roughly a pat on the back. How your team benefits from how you perform, IMO, is worth a lot more than just making a big splash during the season.

    RBI is not enough for BP to win an MVP, but it is without a doubt more than enough to put him into the conversation.
    There are only two seasons - Winter and Baseball.

  9. #128
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    It sounded odd to me too. But then I acknowledged that the Triple Crown stats just might not be the best way to judge a hitter.
    Batting average. RBI's. HR's. Pretty good way to judge a hitter. If you lead the league in those categories then you are the best hitter in the league.

  10. #129
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by MrRedLegger View Post
    To condense a player's entire season into one number (i.e. OPS+) is not grounds for an MVP award. It is good, however, as a snapshot of that player's season. For example, in 2010 Votto had a lower OPS+ than Pujols. We're all glad the voters didn'y rely on this one number to dish out the award.

    For the sake of 2012, had the Angels made the playoffs Trout would have had a much better case for the award. But his team didn't get in, and so all those juicy stats were worth roughly a pat on the back. How your team benefits from how you perform, IMO, is worth a lot more than just making a big splash during the season.

    RBI is not enough for BP to win an MVP, but it is without a doubt more than enough to put him into the conversation.
    Isn't that awfully stupid though, that someone's teammates are more reason to give out an individual award? Mike Trout and his team actually won more games than Miguel Cabrera and his team, but because Trout and his teammates had to player in a tougher division, then Trout somehow loses value? There simply isn't logic there.

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  12. #130
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by reds700 View Post
    Batting average. RBI's. HR's. Pretty good way to judge a hitter. If you lead the league in those categories then you are the best hitter in the league.
    No you aren't. Not always. It ignores getting on base. It ignores the ballpark you play in (for example, there is a huge difference between playing in GABP and Petco - having a little bit better numbers in GABP than in Petco probably tells you the guy in Petco was much better but that his hitting environment wasn't nearly as easy to work with).

    Here is what we know. OBP is the most important thing to scoring runs. SLG is the second most important thing to scoring runs. When you add them together you get OPS, which is very important to scoring runs. When we adjust OPS to account for the park factors where you play (weighted for both home and road games), Mike Trout came out with the better number, suggesting that on a rate basis per plate appearances, he was doing more for producing runs for his team than Miguel Cabrera was for his team.

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    Raisor (05-17-2013)

  14. #131
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    I wouldn't assume that.



    I have no idea what the latter has to do with the former. Nor am I interested in arguing on behalf of "some of you." To me, it's unwise to amalgamate "Redszone" as a person and fight your arguments against "it."



    I haven't seen anyone discrediting him.



    I've basically made three points:

    1. To me, "driving in runs" isn't a different skill than "hitting the ball."

    2. However, to those who believe RBI is it's own skill, isn't the percentage of baserunners turned into run more interesting than the counting stat which is mostly a product of lineup? I only found out about that a few years ago and thought it was a really interesting point.

    3. And then I picked who I thought would be MVP up to this point. It wouldn't be BP who's not even in my top 20 NL players or top 3 NL 2B. He would be on my PVP (Pretty Valuable Player) list though.
    I have no idea how to reply to this in the RedsZone sense, nor do I care. I double majored in English and Journalism, followed it up with an Engineering Degree, and started my professional career writing for NASCAR publications. I've since moved on to more lucrative employment. I don't feel I've lost my intellect, but this site makes me feel like an idiot. I had a weekly SI issue at age 7 (thanks dad). Baseball cards were my life (and made me a math god?). Should I apologize?
    "I talked to an advance scout that told me if Joey Votto and Albert Pujols were on the same team he'd advise his team to do the unthinkable...pitch around Votto to get to Pujols." - Buster Olney, ESPN

  15. #132
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No you aren't. Not always. It ignores getting on base. It ignores the ballpark you play in (for example, there is a huge difference between playing in GABP and Petco - having a little bit better numbers in GABP than in Petco probably tells you the guy in Petco was much better but that his hitting environment wasn't nearly as easy to work with).

    Here is what we know. OBP is the most important thing to scoring runs. SLG is the second most important thing to scoring runs. When you add them together you get OPS, which is very important to scoring runs. When we adjust OPS to account for the park factors where you play (weighted for both home and road games), Mike Trout came out with the better number, suggesting that on a rate basis per plate appearances, he was doing more for producing runs for his team than Miguel Cabrera was for his team.
    The ballpark thing is overdone imo. Yeah, it is easier to hit home runs in certain parks, but it is also harder to get base hits in those parks b/c the outfield is smaller. It all evens out.

  16. #133
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by reds700 View Post
    The ballpark thing is overdone imo. Yeah, it is easier to hit home runs in certain parks, but it is also harder to get base hits in those parks b/c the outfield is smaller. It all evens out.
    It all evens out?

    Except when you measure the worth of a HR vs a single then it doesn't.

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  18. #134
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Woy stole my gimmick earlier with the worth of different types of hits. Batting average tells you nothing that ops doesn't tell you better.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  19. #135
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    Re: 1/4 Mark NL and AL MVPs

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Woy stole my gimmick earlier with the worth of different types of hits. Batting average tells you nothing that ops doesn't tell you better.
    You stole it from FC Lane though



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