Yu Darvish's Arm Is Not A Gun: Why Hard Pitch-Count Limits Are Dumb

[Wonderful Monds]

Interesting BP piece posted to Deadspin earlier about pitch counts:
http://deadspin.com/yu-darvishs-arm-...-lim-508279020

It's basic stuff, but there's some interesting bits about the nature of arm injuries in there:

Recovery days, a pitcher who doesnt get hurt, any of these guys youre talking about, have a pattern where they pitch, and then they have sufficient rest and recovery before the next time they pitch. A guy who blows out his arm, elbow or shoulder, doesnt blow it out from one day. What it is;he went through a season, or more seasons, where he pitched a little or pitched on a given day, and then he had recovery days and he pitched again, but he was never quite recovering each time, and his damage from game after game accumulated and became an injury.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Thanks WM. Interesting to be sure. And I agree 100% with it. Those guys who harp on pitch counts like it's a sin to go over 100 or 120 or whatever with ANY pitcher drive me nuts. Just like Homer & Latos...those 2 guys have VERY solid mechanics and are not slight of build like Bronson...simply put, they can take more than Bronson...and if you need to work them extra, then the place you back them off isn't their next start, it's their off-day throwing session. Allow them to recover properly.

[klw]

Thanks WM. Interesting to be sure. And I agree 100% with it. Those guys who harp on pitch counts like it's a sin to go over 100 or 120 or whatever with ANY pitcher drive me nuts. Just like Homer & Latos...those 2 guys have VERY solid mechanics and are not slight of build like Bronson...simply put, they can take more than Bronson...and if you need to work them extra, then the place you back them off isn't their next start, it's their off-day throwing session. Allow them to recover properly.

Well how many times has Homer been dl'd in his career with arm/ shoulder issues? how many starts has Arroyo missed in his career? Pretty sure Homer has more DL trips than Arroyo has missed starts in his whole career. arroyo may have a slight build but his delivery is not violent.

[R_Webb18]

Maybe someone can explain this to me but

Chapman throws 100
Homer throws 95
Arroyo throws 90

How is either different if they give same effort? Other than more physical talent. I guess throwing hard could have more long term effects?

[_Sir_Charles_]

Well how many times has Homer been dl'd in his career with arm/ shoulder issues? how many starts has Arroyo missed in his career? Pretty sure Homer has more DL trips than Arroyo has missed starts in his whole career. arroyo may have a slight build but his delivery is not violent.

Fair point. Homer's delivery has improved by leaps and bounds through the years, wouldn't you agree? And mentioning Bronson as an example probably was a poor choice. I think he knows his body better than most pitchers and he's definitely more honest about his body with the coaches than just about ANY pitcher. That honesty is a major factor in him not getting injured by pitching while fatigued. But my main point remains that pitchers are all different and that 100 pitch count plateau is really kinda pointless.

[klw]

Fair point. Homer's delivery has improved by leaps and bounds through the years, wouldn't you agree? And mentioning Bronson as an example probably was a poor choice. I think he knows his body better than most pitchers and he's definitely more honest about his body with the coaches than just about ANY pitcher. That honesty is a major factor in him not getting injured by pitching while fatigued. But my main point remains that pitchers are all different and that 100 pitch count plateau is really kinda pointless.

I agree that the decision on how much to use a pitcher should vary player to player and even start to start. As I pointed out in another thread my gripe about Bailey throwing the 9th the othe day did not have to do with a hard cap for as much as it was unnecessary. The game was not close and the pen was rested. The pitches that inning could drain in for the next start or the one after and could have been avoided.

I am just glad that the Reds have been consistent with their Marshall plan to cap him at 5 pitches per week.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Regarding that Bailey start...I'm betting he lobbied VERY hard to stay in there. And considering how loose and easy he was throwing allowed Dusty to give him the ball once more.

And I really don't think that carries over to the next start...AT ALL. If he's heavily worked, then the side session in between starts is where you back off. It's not how many bullets, it's how recovered your arm is by the time your next start rolls around. Throwing in between is just to help keep your timing down and your release point down and such. That can be altered as needed (and it generally is).

[R_Webb18]

These extra innings early on when games are pretty much over add up as the year goes on.

I'm not saying this had anything to do with Cueto getting hurt last year because it probably didn't but I swear he was used with high pitch count many times in April/May if my memory is correct.

[klw]

Bumping this to note that the start after this discussion Homer was fine but pulled before 100 pitches. The next start many on the game thread described Homer as struggling but ultimately iirc he only gave up 2 runs. Last time out he gave up 7. 3 already tonight. I can't say there is a correlation to the high pitch count game but my fear at the time was that he could be slowed a couple of starts down the line.

[Tony Cloninger]

Bumping this to note that the start after this discussion Homer was fine but pulled before 100 pitches. The next start many on the game thread described Homer as struggling but ultimately iirc he only gave up 2 runs. Last time out he gave up 7. 3 already tonight. I can't say there is a correlation to the high pitch count game but my fear at the time was that he could be slowed a couple of starts down the line.

3 runs on 4 hits...1 BB and & 7 K. Not really that bad in GABP. I think that ONE 120 pitch start is way past the reason he gave up runs in this game.

[klw]

3 runs on 4 hits...1 BB and & K. Not really that bad in GABP. I think that ONE 120 pitch start is way past the reason he gave up runs in this game.

He has recovered nicely tonight so it looks like I was premature. Now we just need to see his hitting get back on track.

[M2]

All I could think of when I read "Yu Darvish's arm is not a gun" is this:



Which begs the question of whether Yu Darvish's arm is from space and, if it blows up, would a homing beacon cause it to reassemble on a glacier in Iceland?

[Tony Cloninger]

He has recovered nicely tonight so it looks like I was premature. Now we just need to see his hitting get back on track.

I am glad to see Frazier hitting again...even if his swings would make Yogi Berra look live Steve Garvey swinging.

[RedsManRick]

It's funny how, at the end of the day, this is all pretty much common sense. Nice article; thanks for sharing.

It amazes me that with all the money organizations spend on pitchers they aren't exhausting the science on this stuff. I'd want to be testing these guys everyday, at least until I have enough information to know how his particular mechanics affect his muscles, how his body tires and how quickly he recovers. For the price of a middle reliever, you could have so much better information.

[OGB]

All I could think of when I read "Yu Darvish's arm is not a gun" is this:



Which begs the question of whether Yu Darvish's arm is from space and, if it blows up, would a homing beacon cause it to reassemble on a glacier in Iceland?

SU-PER-MAN?