Garcia to DL

[Tony Cloninger]

I never said slop was a bad thing if it gets the job done. I just thought it was a curious statement on the part of the poster I was responding to.

Which would be me....and Arroyo threw more than just slop at first. His slop developed over time but he actually has some stuff to go with that slop. Now he is mainly all slop. A Sloppy Joe's if you will. This new Cards guy.......is all slop.

81 pitches in 7 innings for what? Ted Lyons last night. Must be the old White Sox pitcher out there from the 20's and 30's out there throwing. I realize the Padres had never seen him but his stuff was not moving that much that they should be fooled that badly and swing at such bad pitches...from some of the highlights i saw.

[Magdal]

Which would be me....and Arroyo threw more than just slop at first. His slop developed over time but he actually has some stuff to go with that slop. Now he is mainly all slop. A Sloppy Joe's if you will. This new Cards guy.......is all slop.

81 pitches in 7 innings for what? Ted Lyons last night. Must be the old White Sox pitcher out there from the 20's and 30's out there throwing. I realize the Padres had never seen him but his stuff was not moving that much that they should be fooled that badly and swing at such bad pitches...from some of the highlights i saw.

I watched the entire game, and I can assure you the kid has some stuff. Live fastball and a sweeping curve that LHB's could not seem to resist. I know 7 innings is a rediculas sample, but any scout seeing him for the 1st time would be impressed.

The Gast kid is another matter. He can't go 6. He would be taylor made for middle relief.

[Edd Roush]

I don't know, I'm liking the look of facing Tyler Lyons, he of pedestrian minor league numbers, over Garcia. Or Wacha. Or any other youngster that should be in the minors and is pressed into service due to injuries. I'm just fine with that. The more they pitch, the more their limits will be exposed.

Garcia has a career FIP of 3.38 and hasn't had an FIP over 3.41 in a full season for his entire career. Furthermore, his career ERA is only 3.45 and he has never sported a full season ERA over 3.92 as a starter. He is no doubt a TOR starter. Lyons has some decent minor league numbers, but I think it is an extreme stretch to say that Lyons is better than established TOR starter.

[MikeThierry]

Which would be me....and Arroyo threw more than just slop at first. His slop developed over time but he actually has some stuff to go with that slop. Now he is mainly all slop. A Sloppy Joe's if you will. This new Cards guy.......is all slop.

81 pitches in 7 innings for what? Ted Lyons last night. Must be the old White Sox pitcher out there from the 20's and 30's out there throwing. I realize the Padres had never seen him but his stuff was not moving that much that they should be fooled that badly and swing at such bad pitches...from some of the highlights i saw.

Really? I was watching the whole game and it looked like his stuff was moving all over the place. He was never really in the middle of the plate to where they can do damage. I'm not saying he's a long term answer but to also minimize what he did kind of misses the mark in my opinion.

[traderumor]

Garcia has a career FIP of 3.38 and hasn't had an FIP over 3.41 in a full season for his entire career. Furthermore, his career ERA is only 3.45 and he has never sported a full season ERA over 3.92 as a starter. He is no doubt a TOR starter. Lyons has some decent minor league numbers, but I think it is an extreme stretch to say that Lyons is better than established TOR starter.

It appears you misread my post. I was saying that it is better for the Reds that Lyons or Wacha is in the rotation than Garcia. His was the pedestrian minor league numbers I was referring to. Lyons is AAA fodder and will be exposed as such. Garcia is a good major league pitcher.

[Edd Roush]

It appears you misread my post. I was saying that it is better for the Reds that Lyons or Wacha is in the rotation than Garcia. His was the pedestrian minor league numbers I was referring to. Lyons is AAA fodder and will be exposed as such. Garcia is a good major league pitcher.

I apologize. At first glance, I really thought you meant that you believed Lyons/Wacha to be better pitchers than Garcia.

[MikeThierry]

It appears you misread my post. I was saying that it is better for the Reds that Lyons or Wacha is in the rotation than Garcia. His was the pedestrian minor league numbers I was referring to. Lyons is AAA fodder and will be exposed as such. Garcia is a good major league pitcher.

Then it's a good thing that Lyons won't be up for long.

[PuffyPig]

Then it's a good thing that Lyons won't be up for long.

I'm not so sure. Remmeber Wacha was thought to be a low upside arm but was advanced. He hasn't been particularly impressive at AAA. He's not missing any bats at all. His upside is likely Mike Leake who was considered much more highly coming out of college.

Wacha is likley going to be a ligitimate major league back end starter, ala Leake. But that day may not be shortly.

[traderumor]

I apologize. At first glance, I really thought you meant that you believed Lyons/Wacha to be better pitchers than Garcia.

No problem.

[MikeThierry]

I'm not so sure. Remmeber Wacha was thought to be a low upside arm but was advanced. He hasn't been particularly impressive at AAA. He's not missing any bats at all. His upside is likely Mike Leake who was considered much more highly coming out of college.

Wacha is likley going to be a ligitimate major league back end starter, ala Leake. But that day may not be shortly.

The Cards have a lot of options though. That's what I was alluding to. They could pitch Joe Kelly as a starter or leave Martinez up with the big club to start. Both of those pitchers would be better long term options than Lyons.

[757690]

The Cards have a lot of options though. That's what I was alluding to. They could pitch Joe Kelly as a starter or leave Martinez up with the big club to start. Both of those pitchers would be better long term options than Lyons.

If the Cards thought Martinez and Kelly were viable starting options, they would be starting right now. Lyons and Gast are not guys a team turns to unless they have no other options.

[PuffyPig]

If the Cards thought Martinez and Kelly were viable starting options, they would be starting right now. Lyons and Gast are not guys a team turns to unless they have no other options.

Kelly is having trouble getting any out right now. Though I suspect he's been very unlucky. He always profiled best as a reliever.

Martinez has been a little better, but has not been great, and maybe still profiles best as a reliever. He's no where close to being the type of guy who's going to be able to pitch deep into games at the major league level.

Lyons and Gast are basically replacement level pitchers. They may pitch fine over a smaller sample size as anyone can if they get good BABIP luck or otherwise. But the longer they are exposed, the worse they will look. And maybe they get bad luck to start and are immediately trounced. I note that Lyons had a .150 BABIP last night, gave up a long HR to center, and another moon shot that went foul in left.

[MikeThierry]

If the Cards thought Martinez and Kelly were viable starting options, they would be starting right now. Lyons and Gast are not guys a team turns to unless they have no other options.

Actually, Martinez had Visa problems and missed all of spring training for the Cardinals and it's why he didn't get a chance with the major league team coming out of Spring Training. He's been conditioned as a starter so I don't see a reason why he wouldn't be able to start if push comes to shove. Same thing with Kelly. Kelly was in contention for the 5th starters position but obviously Miller took that from him. Just because he couldn't win the job from Miller doesn't mean he could start, like he did practically all year last year for the Cardinals.

[SpiritofStLouis]

Technically, on the Fansgraph page, that's what it says. But he's there for his defensive value, most of which he earned while playing third when he filled in for Freese. He actually hasn't played enough games at 2B to qualify as a starter at secondbase for the league. Technically, he's a utility player.

Without looking up the UZR ratings, he has 3 errors at 3rd base and 0 at 2B.

[SpiritofStLouis]

I'm not so sure. Remmeber Wacha was thought to be a low upside arm but was advanced. He hasn't been particularly impressive at AAA. He's not missing any bats at all. His upside is likely Mike Leake who was considered much more highly coming out of college.

Wacha is likley going to be a ligitimate major league back end starter, ala Leake. But that day may not be shortly.

Your opinion appears to differ from the scouts and baseball journalists (Baseball America, etc.) who have seen him pitch.

One of the reasons given for Wacha staying at AAA is his need to improve his secondary pitches. Throwing predominantly fastballs just to improve his K/BB rate would be counterproductive.

He and the Cardinals would be best served if he remained at AAA all year.