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Thread: Joey Votto or Miguel Cabrera?

  1. #46
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto or Miguel Cabrera?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    No they weren't. Joe Posnanski wrote an interesting article the other day about Albert Pujols essentially not mattering anymore. In the article, he brought up mind boggling numbers that put him on par with Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Babe Ruth, and Lou Gehrig the first ten years of his career. Miggy hasn't even come close to matching or being compared to any of those guys. I think people forget how dominant Pujols was early in his career because he was overshadowed by Bonds. We're talking about a player who never struck out more than 100 times in a season and had 8 years of +1.000 OPS seasons four of which where he OPS'd over 1.100. What also truly separated Miggy and Pujols in their prime is that Pujols had elite level defense at first. In fact, I would argue that Pujols will probably go down as a top 5 defender at 1B. Because of this factor, Pujols consistently put up 8 WAR seasons while Miggy has yet to have a season over 6.9 WAR according to fangraphs.
    Pujols in St. Louis was the kind of player everyone respected. Home grown talent who had taken a team friendly deal to stay with the Cards for the first 10 years of his career. He wasn't a guy who had an ego bigger than the game itself and was a strong figure in the community. When Albert left for $ and also signed a 10 year personal services contract he pretty much gave up all the good will he had built in St. Louis as well as within baseball, and was looked at as a mercenary.

    Last season Albert still put up an OPS+ of 140, but did have his worst season on record. The scary thing for the LAA has to be that not only is his game poor this season but he looks old. He looks like he can't run this season. In Spring Training they had a pinch runner for him. Couple that with him starting next season to earn $20M+ over the next 8 seasons. Albert doesn't matter anymore because he isn't as good as he once was, and fans don't like him as much either.

    As far as the original question goes, I would probably take Miggy, esp. if we're talking about Miggy playing in a ballpark like Great American Ballpark. I marvel at what Miggy is able to do in that canyon of a ballpark he plays in on a daily basis.
    Miggy still has to play defense. As a 1b its a little more tolerable than elsewhere, but the guy is a liability on defense.

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  4. #47
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto or Miguel Cabrera?

    Pujols's decline illustrates the reason why in the thread about who to keep-Choo or Bruce, that I, along with many other posters, stated we would keep Bruce even though Choo clearly has been the better player, both this season and for the last few seasons. Choo is age 31 while Bruce is age 26.
    There are always exceptions of course, but it is a good bet that a player will have his best seasons before age 32 or so. After that, while the player may become more expensive to keep, his production will probably decline. Sometimes a team gets lucky. Sometimes a team gets exceptionally unlucky, as the Reds did when they acquired Ken Griffey Jr. at age 30.
    Odd are, if Joey Votto has not already had his "career year" in his MVP season, he will have his peak season in 2013 or 2014. As he ages time will get to him as it gets to us all.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  5. #48
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto or Miguel Cabrera?

    Until a gif of Votto hitting 6 HR at a time surfaces, I'm sticking with Miggy.

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  7. #49
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto or Miguel Cabrera?

    Cabrera is only 5 months old than Votto. Cabrera had over 800 hits, including 134 HRs, before Votto had a major league plate appearance. Cabrera has a decent shot at reaching 2000 hits this year -- in his age 30 season. Votto has a decent shot at 1000.

    That has basically no bearing on this conversation, but I thought it was pretty cool.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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  9. #50
    Savante SpiritofStLouis's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto or Miguel Cabrera?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    Pujols's decline illustrates the reason why in the thread about who to keep-Choo or Bruce, that I, along with many other posters, stated we would keep Bruce even though Choo clearly has been the better player, both this season and for the last few seasons. Choo is age 31 while Bruce is age 26.
    There are always exceptions of course, but it is a good bet that a player will have his best seasons before age 32 or so. After that, while the player may become more expensive to keep, his production will probably decline. Sometimes a team gets lucky. Sometimes a team gets exceptionally unlucky, as the Reds did when they acquired Ken Griffey Jr. at age 30.
    Odd are, if Joey Votto has not already had his "career year" in his MVP season, he will have his peak season in 2013 or 2014. As he ages time will get to him as it gets to us all.
    From 2018, in which Votto will be 34, until 2023, in which Votto will be 39, the Reds are on the hook for $ 25 million per.

    Good luck with that.
    We can share the women, we can share the wine.

  10. #51
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto or Miguel Cabrera?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofStLouis View Post
    From 2018, in which Votto will be 34, until 2023, in which Votto will be 39, the Reds are on the hook for $ 25 million per.

    Good luck with that.
    There is a thread about the friendship Votto has struck up with Pete Rose. Votto appears to have the dedication to his craft that Rose had (without the character failings Pete had, alas). I could see Votto working tirelessly to stay in shape and make adjustments as he ages, as Rose did. Joey is also reportedly a disciple of the Ted Williams approach to hitting. Both Rose and Teddy Ballgame remained effective hitters as they reached age 40.
    That's the optimistic forecast.
    More likely, Joey will decline during the 2018-23 seasons, and perhaps the knee problems will return. As great as Rose and Williams were as 38 year olds (Rose hit .331 and Williams hit .388 ), they still were not as good as they were in their 20s.
    Joey is at his peak now. The Reds need to win a World Series now.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  11. #52
    Member blumj's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto or Miguel Cabrera?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofStLouis View Post
    From 2018, in which Votto will be 34, until 2023, in which Votto will be 39, the Reds are on the hook for $ 25 million per.

    Good luck with that.
    As if they won't be able to trade him to the Dodgers or Yankees before then if they want.
    "Reality tells us there are no guarantees. Except that some day Jon Lester will be on that list of 100-game winners." - Peter Gammons

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  13. #53
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto or Miguel Cabrera?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofStLouis View Post
    From 2018, in which Votto will be 34, until 2023, in which Votto will be 39, the Reds are on the hook for $ 25 million per.

    Good luck with that.
    In 2023, mediocre players like John Jay, Daniel Descalso, and Mart Carpenter (none of who will actually still be playing In MLB, but just players like them) could be getting paid $25M a year. Team payrolls could be averaging $400M. Who knows?

    Joey Votto could win the MVP in 2023. Who knows?

    We don't know what will be in 2023. The only thing we do know is that SpiritofSaintLouis will still be unemployed, still living in his mother's basement, still trolling the Internet, and still never having kissed a girl
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.


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