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Thread: On the declining quality of the ORG

  1. #211
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    While you are technically correct, we both know that they aren't talking about buying stuff at GNC. They are talking about HGH and Steroids.

    As for the era we are in, we don't have a clue how many guys were using. But since they started testing less than 1% of guys have failed tests or even been linked in the media to some type of PED, so let's not just start throwing everyone under the train because of assumptions.
    Then can we drop the "they are being accused of breaking the law" point? That seems fair.

    Testosterone and HGH can be legally obtained thru a doctor and pharmacy. Unless I missed it, no one is accusing anyone of breaking the law (it is certainly not the main accusation of anyone).

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  3. #212
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Then can we drop the "they are being accused of breaking the law" point? That seems fair.

    Testosterone and HGH can be legally obtained thru a doctor and pharmacy. Unless I missed it, no one is accusing anyone of breaking the law (it is certainly not the main accusation of anyone).
    And they are illegal if not obtained through a doctor for legal reasons and if they were legally prescribed by a doctor, they would be allowed by Major League baseball.

  4. #213
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    You continue to make this mistake. No one is arguing that just because a player has gotten better, there is reason to speculate about PED's. The argument is that if a player increases his power significantly at an age when most humans stop getting stronger naturally, there is reason to speculate about PED use. We have empirical evidence that doing PED's increases one power, so it is a logical, rarional argument to make, based on data.

    As to the quality of discussion that this topic generates, I suggest you re-read the thread.

    In the debate, posters brought forth other data to suggest that there were other factors in play. Brought forth was:

    That Molina started his MLB career at a very young age.
    That Molina started working out more.
    That the Molina family has been known for late career improvement.
    That Molina had always been a good line drive hitter.
    That Molina's wOBA showed a steady improvement
    That Molina's BABIP might explain his improvement.
    WOY brought forth many other players from MLB history that had similar imporvements at the same age.
    And that's off the top of my head. There was more great points made on both sides.

    The thread itself is proof that such a topic doesn't represent the lowest common denominator of the ORG. In fact, except for the thread police who kept trying to derail it by claiming it wasn't ORG worthy, the thread has provided some of the most intelligent, logical, fact based discussion that this board has seen in awhile.
    I don't need to reread the thread. Why? Because I've not only read it and contributed some arguments refuting the OP's "question", none of the points listed above actually broke new ground concerning PEDs accusations except for the person being accused in the OP.

    That thread was "Just another Dunn thread" or "Just another Dusty thread" or "Just another the sky is falling thread" but rather than being started by a Dunn walk with RISP or a Dusy quote, or a poor series by the Reds, random supposition without any precipitating event/news story sparked it and the same reasons used to point out the striking weakness of the original arguments generally used in PEDs accusation threads was again used to point out how flaccid the Molina accusation was...

    But again, what is the theme? Random supposition that calls into question a player's character and the integrity of his performance which ulitmately is easy to refute with even a cursory understanding of sabermetrics and history. It's low hanging intellectual fruit at best and lowest common denominator at worst. And what did it generate? Lots of metacommentary in the original thread, a metacommentary thread about the thread, and metacommentary about the metacommentary thread in the metacommentary thread. Big win for the ORG!

    And another point that many seem to under appreciate when they say "if you find a thread uninteresting or even distasteful you don't have to read it, you can just move on"-the point of being in the ORG is so that one doesn't have to wade through those kinds of threads to find intelligent posts free from the flavor commonplace at Cincinnati.com in the first place.
    Last edited by jojo; 06-28-2013 at 05:30 PM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  5. #214
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sheed View Post
    Link please. Also, some stats to backup your point would be helpful. And if you come up with the stats yourself, I'll need a hyperlink to your calculator.
    1) Here you go: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101445

    2) Based upon an 80% in LFPQ (Last five post quality) youre the thing youre railing against. Here are your last 5 posts on the big board (non-subforum posts):

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sheed View Post
    Link please. Also, some stats to backup your point would be helpful. And if you come up with the stats yourself, I'll need a hyperlink to your calculator.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sheed View Post
    I know you aren't. But gosh bless you for trying so hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sheed View Post
    It's not just a river in Egypt, my friend.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sheed View Post
    The real downturn in quality with the ORG is due to one thing:

    A bunch of people whining about the downturn in quality with the ORG.

    If you want some real comic relief, pick the 4 or 5 biggest whiners, and look at the "quality" of their past 5 or 10 posts.

    I'm just glad there is a thread like this, so that all the neighing high horses can be confined to one stable.

    SITE SUGGESTION: Lets create another forum here... we'll call it "The Super Elite ORG." Only the biggest complainers about the quality here can post there, and they can't post anywhere else.

    Then let them dazzle us with their superior posting ability, so that us lesser beings may be schooled in the ways of superior forum opinion making.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sheed View Post
    Hey now... Pete is just like any other guy. Two arms, two legs, 4000 hits, and a gambling addition resulting in a lifetime ban from the MLB Hall of Fame.
    3) Since it's the metric you invented and the raw data is above, the assumption is that you do not need a hyperlink to see the calculation...
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  6. #215
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    And they are illegal if not obtained through a doctor for legal reasons and if they were legally prescribed by a doctor, they would be allowed by Major League baseball.
    I'm not sure I follow you and I'm not sure I know all the rules in terms of PEDS so feel free to clarify this example.

    Let's say Joey Votto goes to the doctor and it is found he has low testosterone. So the doctor prescribes him testosterone injections. (Legal, right?)

    So Joey Votto takes his vial of testosterone, goes in front of the media, and injects himself with testosterone. Does he get suspended after his drug screen the next day, or does he have a waiver?

    If he would get suspended he was just suspended by MLB for using a perfectly legal prescription. (But maybe he wouldn't?)

  7. #216
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    I'm not sure I follow you and I'm not sure I know all the rules in terms of PEDS so feel free to clarify this example.

    Let's say Joey Votto goes to the doctor and it is found he has low testosterone. So the doctor prescribes him testosterone injections. (Legal, right?)

    So Joey Votto takes his vial of testosterone, goes in front of the media, and injects himself with testosterone. Does he get suspended after his drug screen the next day, or does he have a waiver?

    If he would get suspended he was just suspended by MLB for using a perfectly legal prescription. (But maybe he wouldn't?)
    MLB would have to approve him for that, even after a doctor subscribed it to him. They have a process for it, just to make sure that a doctor isn't just saying he needs it. But yes, eventually if approved by a doctor and then MLB, he would be allowed to take it as far as my understanding of the rules go.

    A former Reds minor leaguer had ADHD. He was not allowed to take his prescribed medication for over a year and a half as he awaited baseball approval because it is on the banned substance list. He is now allowed to take it, it just took a long time for him to get the correct approvals.

  8. #217
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    MLB would have to approve him for that, even after a doctor subscribed it to him. They have a process for it, just to make sure that a doctor isn't just saying he needs it. But yes, eventually if approved by a doctor and then MLB, he would be allowed to take it as far as my understanding of the rules go.

    A former Reds minor leaguer had ADHD. He was not allowed to take his prescribed medication for over a year and a half as he awaited baseball approval because it is on the banned substance list. He is now allowed to take it, it just took a long time for him to get the correct approvals.
    So it is certainly possible a player is legally prescribed a med, doesn't get it approved by MLB, and is suspended.

    I can appreciate that yes, I imagine player obtain PEDs in less than honorable ways, but no one is really belaboring that point.

    So it seems a bit much to say "you are accusing them of crimes". Which you did in order to make your example work.

  9. #218
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    So it is certainly possible a player is legally prescribed a med, doesn't get it approved by MLB, and is suspended.

    I can appreciate that yes, I imagine player obtain PEDs in less than honorable ways, but no one is really belaboring that point.

    So it seems a bit much to say "you are accusing them of crimes". Which you did in order to make your example work.
    Yes, technically it is possible that it worked out that way. That was the Edinson Volquez story. A doctor prescribed him something and then he tested positive for it (though he tested positive for a non-PED, what he tested positive for was something used as a masking agent for PED).

    Point is, I hate when people are accusing people of cheating or even downright breaking the law without a single shred of evidence other than "they got better or look bigger" and "other people did it before".

  10. #219
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Asking questions isn't accusing.

    There are lots of reasons people get better- PEDs is one. Could be BAPIP, could be skill, could be PEDs. If players don't anyone to be suspicious, don't hide in the shadows. Don't give us all a reason to be wary.

    And jojo- the mission statement is cool and all, but again an increased performance could be evidence of PEDs.

    Baseball players take PEDs. PEDs increase performance. It's not like posters here are accusing them of stealing their stereo-

    It's easy to rail on about proof but unfortunately the only way to prove that is to get a blood test, an admission or witness it. The players use that to their advantage, and since they are going to do that in the shadows and not be forthcoming, it leaves it open to speculation.

    If you can't follow the logic, I can't help you with that. But given that this is an issue where the type of evidence you are demanding would be hard to come by given the inherent circumstances by which drugs are taken, the questions are legitimate.

    The way I see it, players aren't going to cheat in the shadows and then hide behind the laws of discovery when it comes to public opinion.

    If you wish to go about it the way of the ostrich, I would recommend some sunscreen.
    Last edited by Dom Heffner; 06-28-2013 at 07:51 PM.

  11. #220
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    Asking questions isn't accusing.

    There are lots of reasons people get better- PEDs is one. Could be BAPIP, could be skill, could be PEDs. If players don't anyone to be suspicious, don't hide in the shadows. Don't give us all a reason to be wary.
    Getting better isn't a reason to be wary.

  12. #221
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    It could be. Sorry.

  13. #222
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    Asking questions isn't accusing.

    There are lots of reasons people get better- PEDs is one. Could be BAPIP, could be skill, could be PEDs. If players don't anyone to be suspicious, don't hide in the shadows. Don't give us all a reason to be wary.

    And jojo- the mission statement is cool and all, but again an increased performance could be evidence of PEDs.

    Baseball players take PEDs. PEDs increase performance. It's not like posters here are accusing them of stealing their stereo-

    It's easy to rail on about proof but unfortunately the only way to prove that is to get a blood test, an admission or witness it. The players use that to their advantage, and since they are going to do that in the shadows and not be forthcoming, it leaves it open to speculation.

    If you can't follow the logic, I can't help you with that. But given that this is an issue where the type of evidence you are demanding would be hard to come by given the inherent circumstances by which drugs are taken, the questions are legitimate.

    The way I see it, players aren't going to cheat in the shadows and then hide behind the laws of discovery when it comes to public opinion.

    If you wish to go about it the way of the ostrich, I would recommend some sunscreen.
    Asking certain questions casts doubt on a player's character and the integrity of their performance. Doing so without some compelling reason is acting poorly. And no, a lack of evidence isnt cause for redefining decency and evoking "public opinion" really is just way to distance oneself from being responsible for one's personal behavior.

    And shenanigans for actually arguing that calling out wild speculation as poor behavior and lowest common denominator discussion is tantamount to sticking one's head in the sand.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  15. #223
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    It could be. Sorry.
    What player is exempt from legitimate speculation do to the "we dont know the facts so its fair to ask" concept in your view?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  17. #224
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    It could be. Sorry.
    But it shouldn't be. Otherwise, the speculation should include every player because they would all still be hanging out in Low-A if they didn't get better at some point.

    There is no logic to where "this guy improved, he must have cheated".

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  19. #225
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    But it shouldn't be. Otherwise, the speculation should include every player because they would all still be hanging out in Low-A if they didn't get better at some point.

    There is no logic to where "this guy improved, he must have cheated".
    You can't stop at "he got better," you have to look for more red flags.

    What age did this improvement happen?
    Where was the improvement?
    What are the historical comps to this type of improvement?
    Where there any abnormal physical changes in the player?
    What was the environment in which he played?
    And many more.

    Again, none of these questions prove anything, no conclusions can be drawn, but they are question an inquiring person should ask.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.


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