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Thread: On the declining quality of the ORG

  1. #181
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    Unfortunately for your argument, an enhanced performance could be evidence of taking performance enhancing drugs. That's the reality. So we aren't speaking about something without evidence.

    If you and I agree that there are major league baseball players that take PEDs...and I think you would...then those drugs are part of the game....we don't know who is doing it, but we know there are people doing it.

    And since performance enhancing drugs raise someone's performance, a raise in performance could be caused by performance enhancing drugs, and it's worth exploring since you and I just agreed that we know baseball players take them.

    We aren't taking apart in a witch hunt if we question elevated stats in an environment where some players producing those stats are, as we agreed, using PEDs.

    There are no such things as witches, there are such things as baseball players who take drugs to improve their performance. It's a legitimate question to be raised if people wish to raise it.
    Problem is there is really no way for a bunch of message board devotees to furnish the sort of evidence necessary to prove the existence of "elevated" or "enhanced" performance by illegal substances -- and certainly not just by looking at statistics. Admittedly there are other empirical ways -- drug testing, body measurements, etc. Should there ever be a credible report about Molina or anyone else that substantiates this sort of guilt, then I would have far less difficulty with rampant speculation. A-Rod, IMO has already earned as msny threads here as we see fit.

    Short of more substantive reports of this sort, though, all that PED speculation enhances on baseball forums like RZ is a penchant for poor argument and a crazy X-Files herd mentality that assumes "the truth is out there."
    Last edited by RedEye; 06-27-2013 at 10:58 PM.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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  3. #182
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    PED speculation sucks. Unless there is a media report on it it's probably best to just not go there.

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  5. #183
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Problem is there is really no way for a bunch of message board devotees to furnish the sort of evidence necessary to prove the existence of "elevated" or "enhanced" performance by illegal substances -- and certainly not just by looking at statistics. Admittedly there are other empirical ways -- drug testing, body measurements, etc. Should there ever be a credible report about Molina or anyone else that substantiates this sort of guilt, then I would have far less difficulty with rampant speculation. A-Rod, IMO has already earned as msny threads here as we see fit.

    Short of more substantive reports of this sort, though, all that PED speculation enhances on baseball forums like RZ is a penchant for poor argument and a crazy X-Files herd mentality that assumes "the truth is out there."
    Actually, casual fans have been able to correctly peg PED users just by looking back at stats and before and after pics. Brady Anderson, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire, Jose Canseco, Steve Finley, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Bret Boone, A-Rod, Jason Giambi, just off the top of my head.

    None of these guys failed a drug test that has been officially released to the public, and yet a retarded monkey can look at their stats plus before and after pics, and correctly conclude that they used PED's.

    The only way your argument holds up is if you deny that these guys ever used PED's, or at least the ones that haven't admitted it.

    And seriously, are we still talking about this? lol
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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  7. #184
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Actually, casual fans have been able to correctly peg PED users just by looking back at stats and before and after pics. Brady Anderson, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire, Jose Canseco, Steve Finley, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Bret Boone, A-Rod, Jason Giambi, just off the top of my head.

    None of these guys failed a drug test that has been officially released to the public, and yet a retarded monkey can look at their stats plus before and after pics, and correctly conclude that they used PED's.

    The only way your argument holds up is if you deny that these guys ever used PED's, or at least the ones that haven't admitted it.

    And seriously, are we still talking about this? lol
    No, you can't correctly conclude it. You are assuming it. Some of those guys were easily linked to PEDs. Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Canseco, Clemens, ARod... all linked rather easily. The others are pure speculation on your part. Your "evidence" would be laughed out of court.

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    RedEye (06-28-2013)

  9. #185
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No, you can't correctly conclude it. You are assuming it. Some of those guys were easily linked to PEDs. Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Canseco, Clemens, ARod... all linked rather easily. The others are pure speculation on your part. Your "evidence" would be laughed out of court.
    Firt, most of the guys you mentioned have not been linked to PED's except by speculation. None of them have failed a publicly released drug test. There is no hard evidence proving that they used PED's. McGwire and Giambi confessed, but the others deny using to this day. All we have on these other guys is speculation.

    Speculation can be convincing. It's not a dirty term that means untrustworthy.

    If you enter a room to find me with a bat in my hand, standing over a broken lamp, it would be valid for you to speculate that I broke the lamp with the bat. It is the most logical conclusion from the scant evidence you have.

    I may or may not have broken the lamp with the bat, but that is irrelevant. What's relevant is that you can speculate that I did, and no one would criticize you for it. You don't know if I did, but you have every right to speculate that I did.

    There is nothing wrong with speculation based on evidence.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  10. #186
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    I speculate that 757690 is taking posting dehancing drugs.
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  11. #187
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Firt, most of the guys you mentioned have not been linked to PED's except by speculation. None of them have failed a publicly released drug test. There is no hard evidence proving that they used PED's. McGwire and Giambi confessed, but the others deny using to this day. All we have on these other guys is speculation.

    Speculation can be convincing. It's not a dirty term that means untrustworthy.

    If you enter a room to find me with a bat in my hand, standing over a broken lamp, it would be valid for you to speculate that I broke the lamp with the bat. It is the most logical conclusion from the scant evidence you have.

    I may or may not have broken the lamp with the bat, but that is irrelevant. What's relevant is that you can speculate that I did, and no one would criticize you for it. You don't know if I did, but you have every right to speculate that I did.

    There is nothing wrong with speculation based on evidence.
    The Molina thread was NOT an example of speculation with evidence and frankly very few PEDs "discussions" actually rise to the threshold you've just articulated. Most of the time PEDs talk is supposition-based gossip....tittilating innuendo about players on rival teams given a cheaply bought nobility by those who describe a premise that "they all do it" and "something is fishy with this small sample" sufficient to rise to a level of fact-based debate.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  13. #188
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No, you can't correctly conclude it. You are assuming it. Some of those guys were easily linked to PEDs. Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Canseco, Clemens, ARod... all linked rather easily. The others are pure speculation on your part. Your "evidence" would be laughed out of court.
    And what you continually ignore is that we are not a court.

    We are an opinion center. We aren't arresting anyone- we aren't the police, we aren't a federal judge- innocent before proven guilty does not apply here. We can speculate. We can, I promise.

    If you wish to run your personal life like a court of law, good for you.

    We aren't running around accusing normal citizens of witchcraft, we are simply asking if an improved performance could be tied to drugs.

    Baseball players use them, we know they do, we don't need to bury our head in the sand.

    Heck, Raisor raised the possibility that Mike Thierry of posting a goodbye post for attention (if that isn't irony I don't know what is). What was his proof? Is he allowed to speculate, or does he need a signed notarized confession from Mike admitting that?
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  14. #189
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    And what you continually ignore is that we are not a court.

    We are an opinion center. We aren't arresting anyone- we aren't the police, we aren't a federal judge- innocent before proven guilty does not apply here. We can speculate. We can, I promise.

    If you wish to run your personal life like a court of law, good for you.

    We aren't running around accusing normal citizens of witchcraft, we are simply asking if an improved performance could be tied to drugs.

    Baseball players use them, we know they do, we don't need to bury our head in the sand.

    Heck, Raisor raised the possibility that Mike Thierry of posting a goodbye post for attention (if that isn't irony I don't know what is). What was his proof? Is he allowed to speculate, or does he need a signed notarized confession from Mike admitting that?
    Dom, the ORG mission statement suggests this place is supposed to be a forum where people have solid reasons for their opinions and a willingness to articulate or "back them up".
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  16. #190
    Custodial Engineer Bob Sheed's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    The real downturn in quality with the ORG is due to one thing:

    A bunch of people whining about the downturn in quality with the ORG.

    If you want some real comic relief, pick the 4 or 5 biggest whiners, and look at the "quality" of their past 5 or 10 posts.

    I'm just glad there is a thread like this, so that all the neighing high horses can be confined to one stable.

    SITE SUGGESTION: Lets create another forum here... we'll call it "The Super Elite ORG." Only the biggest complainers about the quality here can post there, and they can't post anywhere else.

    Then let them dazzle us with their superior posting ability, so that us lesser beings may be schooled in the ways of superior forum opinion making.
    Last edited by Bob Sheed; 06-28-2013 at 08:34 AM.
    "And why do false truths persist, getting passed down the decades as if they were fact? It comes back to the same point: People believe things that are wrong because, individually, people rarely investigate their own beliefs, particularly when what they believe makes sense intuitively. Even more so when those around them agree with them." -K.F.

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  18. #191
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    This is not about elite posting. I have no problem with people expressing opinions whatsoever as long as they are backed up by something other than "because I said so." I am continually shocked by the way people respond when asked to support their claims with some sort of sound reasoning. Apparently, to some, a court of law the only place where we need bother with logical argument and supported claims.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  19. #192
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    The Molina thread was NOT an example of speculation with evidence and frankly very few PEDs "discussions" actually rise to the threshold you've just articulated. Most of the time PEDs talk is supposition-based gossip....tittilating innuendo about players on rival teams given a cheaply bought nobility by those who describe a premise that "they all do it" and "something is fishy with this small sample" sufficient to rise to a level of fact-based debate.
    Stats aren't gossip. Stats are hard, verifiable facts. In other words, evidence. Before and after pictures aren't gossip. Before and after pictures are hard, verifiable facts. In other words, evidence. They might not prove a point, they might not make a strong argument, but that's what message boards are for, to debate such matters.

    Just because you don't like an argument doesn't mean it's invalid, or not ORG worthy.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  20. #193
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    If we are interpreting the mission statement to a T, I think we could find a million posts that violate it on the condescending clause alone (present company sometimes included). I think the administrators and mods should be the only people playing the mission statement card.

    And if one so strongly believes that the mission statement is being violated...just report the post.

    I don't mind the back and forth at all on this topic just so you know, so carry on.

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  22. #194
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Stats aren't gossip. Stats are hard, verifiable facts. In other words, evidence. Before and after pictures aren't gossip. Before and after pictures are hard, verifiable facts. In other words, evidence. They might not prove a point, they might not make a strong argument, but that's what message boards are for, to debate such matters.

    Just because you don't like an argument doesn't mean it's invalid, or not ORG worthy.
    Facts only have meaning via interpretation. Statistics are hard evidence of events on baseball field, and that's it. They offer no explanatory power for the cause of those events whatsoever.

    Moreover, what sort of useful debate comes out of suggesting that a player has used PEDs based on stats and pictures alone? The answer is ZERO. All you can really say in response to a claim like that is "Well, maybe." I could just as easily suggest that a player experienced a downturn in statistics due an anxiety disorder -- but unless there is some evidence of that this happened, it is a pretty damaging potential claim.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  23. #195
    Custodial Engineer Bob Sheed's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    but unless there is some evidence of that this happened, it is a pretty damaging potential claim.
    I know... especially after the controversial "State of California vs Internet Dude" Supreme Court ruling, stating that anyone's opinion on internet forums must be construed as absolute truth.

    Oh wait... that never happened. Silly me. But hold on a sec. I'm starting to wonder if people posting comments on internet forums MIGHT just be able to do so, without having to justify said comments with endless stats and linked sources.

    Happy days...

    And consider the alternative:

    A: I think the Reds might fizzle out this year. I don't think Dusty can take them to the next level.
    B: Dude?!?!!!1111 Link? Sources? Man, the quality has really fallen off here at the ORG.
    A: Ummm, I'm just saying I don't think the Reds have it this year.
    B: Can we ban this guy? 5000 post rule, please? I remember when the ORG was something to be proud of. Blah blah blah hijack thread with incessant whining, blah blah blah.
    "And why do false truths persist, getting passed down the decades as if they were fact? It comes back to the same point: People believe things that are wrong because, individually, people rarely investigate their own beliefs, particularly when what they believe makes sense intuitively. Even more so when those around them agree with them." -K.F.


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