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Thread: On the declining quality of the ORG

  1. #106
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    No it doesn't.

    One position accuses a player of cheating without any justification using a premise that isnt actually accurate. The other position points it out. That's the level of discourse envisioned by the ORG's mission statement?

    Its a thread calling a player a cheater with nothing more than supposition that was largely random except that it also happens to serve to tweak members of a rival fan base. That's actually in many ways the antithesis of what the ORG should be about IMHO.
    The first part is pure opinion on yours and other's part.

    Facts were presented based on home runs to support the notion that Molina might have used PED's.

    You presented facts based on wOBA to suggest otherwise.

    A debate then would be framed as to which set of facts is better at determining PED use. That debate would be a perfect example of what is great about RedsZone.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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  4. #107
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    The first part is pure opinion on yours and other's part.

    Facts were presented based on home runs to support the notion that Molina might have used PED's.

    You presented facts based on wOBA to suggest otherwise.

    A debate then would be framed as to which set of facts is better at determining PED use. That debate would be a perfect example of what is great about RedsZone.
    Again shenanigans. Molina is on pace to hit 10 hrs this season, a season evoked by the OP as the reason for his question.... Not so randomly picking a member of a rival team to suppose about his use of PEDs when there aren't facts to suggest it is a perfect example of low quality discussion. Especially when considering that Molina was the subject of a recent Cards-related thread that compared Molina to bench and was also closed.
    Last edited by jojo; 06-21-2013 at 10:41 PM.
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  5. #108
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Again shenanigans. Molina is on pace to hit 10 hrs this season, a season evoked by the OP as the reason for his question.... Not so randomly picking a member of a rival team to suppose about his use of PEDs when there aren't facts to suggest it is a perfect example of low quality discussion. Especially when considering that Molina was the subject of a recent Cards-related thread that compared Molina to bench and was also closed.
    Plenty of facts discussed. You can choose to ignore them, but that doesn't prevent them from being facts. I can just as easily call your facts meaningless, since wOBA can be considered a meaningless stat when discussing PED use. But I wouldn't.

    They are plenty of facts to support the claim that Molina might be using PED's. They don't disappear because you disagree with them.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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  7. #109
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Plenty of facts discussed. You can choose to ignore them, but that doesn't prevent them from being facts. I can just as easily call your facts meaningless, since wOBA can be considered a meaningless stat when discussing PED use. But I wouldn't.

    They are plenty of facts to support the claim that Molina might be using PED's. They don't disappear because you disagree with them.
    Actually, no there aren't. But you're arguing that starting random threads about non-Reds to accuse them of PEDs use without a justifiable precipitating reason (I.e. a suggestion of a failed test etc) exemplifies the mission statement of the ORG.

    That is the antithesis IMHO.
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  8. #110
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    I have had time to cool down and ponder on the discussion that took place today. While I probably overreacted, I think my anger was justified. It wasn't the fact that Molina was being accused of PED use as to why the discussion angered me so much. This topic has been brought up several times and I have debated it. Accusations of PED use for Cardinals have been almost a mainstay here ever since I joined the ORG three or so years ago. The biggest issue I had and the straw that broke the camels back was the accusation that the Cardinals organization actively supports PED use for all their players. At that point, I pretty much had enough. I will probably still come back to this forum some day but I see me staying away for a while until some of this stuff blows over.

    I still believe that the topic being discussed remains a bigger issue with the declining quality of the ORG and almost typifies the issues with the ORG these days. As some have pointed out, this didn't just start when the forums merged.

    Raisor, I can see your point about me posting a good bye message but honestly, I really don't know anyone here on a personal level and I really don't know who enjoys my posts or not. I have no reference as to who I should PM. Plus, I feel that if something isn't said in the open forum, the issues don't get addressed and they get pushed aside.
    Last edited by MikeThierry; 06-22-2013 at 03:13 AM.
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  10. #111
    Oy Vey! Red in Chicago's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    ...and the drama continues...

  11. #112
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    It's the circle of life.

    Big Internet fight.
    Declaration of never coming back.
    900 pages of meta discussion.
    Day or two later the return.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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  13. #113
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Please use the thread in the ORG for discussing Molina and this thread for your input on the quality of the ORG. Thank you.

  14. #114
    Member foxfire123's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    OK, never thought I'd say this about a Cards fan on this board...

    But. I hope Mike DOES reconsider and come back eventually. While he does root for the "wrong" team, and there are times I admit I have wanted to take him out back and slap him around a bit for being a Cards fan, he does contribute to good discussions around here. And he isn't generally overboard on the "rah rah sis boom bah the Cardinals are better than you" BS some spout off when they visit here. He's a good egg.

    and think about it guys, if it were turned around and substitute "Votto" or "Phillips" for Molina in that discussion, you'd be getting pretty fed up too.

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  16. #115
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    To be honest, the original post in that thread sure seemed a lot like trolling to me. I don't know if that was his intention but it looks like it sure could be trolling. We had a similar discussion a couple of weeks ago where people were complaining about all the Cardinals fans on here and the end result was that those threads wound up being closed.
    I don't think there is any question and the unruly crowd piled on. Not a lot of class around here these days.
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  17. #116
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    To be honest, the original post in that thread sure seemed a lot like trolling to me. I don't know if that was his intention but it looks like it sure could be trolling. We had a similar discussion a couple of weeks ago where people were complaining about all the Cardinals fans on here and the end result was that those threads wound up being closed.
    Point of clarification -- are you talking about the RedTruck thread imbroglio or the Yadier Molina PED accusation fiasco?

  18. #117
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    You know what's bothering me lately? All the backlash against people who use stats/sabermetrics to aid their discussions. There's been a lot of posts like this lately:
    Nauseated by the advanced stats navel gazing that seems to predominate in this forum. (and the dearth of discussion about the game beyond those stats).
    I guess I'm kind of insulted by that. If you don't like that stuff nobody is making you read those posts. It's passive-aggressive NERDS I PLAYED THE GAME YOU DON'T KNOW stuff. If someone thinks there's a "dearth of discussion about the game beyond those stats" then add something to the discussion that you want to talk about. Everyone has a different view of things...and for the most part the stat guys are quite respectful of the non stat guys. Sir Charles is one of the best and most respected posters here and he only has a very rudimentary knowledge of advanced stats, by his own admission. Doesn't feel like we get the same respect back.
    Last edited by gilpdawg; 06-23-2013 at 02:41 AM.

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  20. #118
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Point of clarification -- are you talking about the RedTruck thread imbroglio or the Yadier Molina PED accusation fiasco?
    The latter.
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  21. #119
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I don't think there is any question and the unruly crowd piled on. Not a lot of class around here these days.
    To be clear, the thread was a good thread with a solid, rational, healthy debate, until Mike dropped his "I'm so offended, I'm going to take my ball and go home" bomb.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  22. #120
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: On the declining quality of the ORG

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    To be clear, the thread was a good thread with a solid, rational, healthy debate, until Mike dropped his "I'm so offended, I'm going to take my ball and go home" bomb.
    To be clear, that thread was derailed with the very first post.
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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