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Thread: Most important player to NL Central teams

  1. #76
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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    If it was intentional, I could understand. But it clearly was an accident.

    Cueto was stupid to be kicking like he did, and he deserves complete blame for the accident. But I can't see how anyone thinks Cueto actually tried to kick LaRue or anyone in that situation.

    We've been through this before. It might have technically ended LaRue's career, but in reality, it simply shortened by a few months.
    The kick was intentional, hitting him in the head was most likely unintentional. At the time, the Cardinals did not have a competent back up catcher in the organization, so it's likely that LaRue might have played for another year.
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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofStLouis View Post
    The kick was intentional, hitting him in the head was most likely unintentional. At the time, the Cardinals did not have a competent back up catcher in the organization, so it's likely that LaRue might have played for another year.
    They had access to plenty of catchers who could hit higher than .196 and weren't 37 years old.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Choo was injured the last few years, and had great years before that.

    Cueto and Phillips were 24 when they turned the corner on their career, which is when most players start to reach their potential. MLB history is littered with players who struggled until around age 24, and then became very productive players. Players who put up six years of below average power, and then at age 28 turn into above averge power hitters are extremely rare, about one every three decades.

    Bt nice try
    -
    False. Phillips was 26 when he suddenly hit 30 homers. He never again came close to that. It would be illogical to believe he wasn't on steroids that year. In fact if you ask any of his close friends they will admit that he took steroids as well.

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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    They had access to plenty of catchers who could hit higher than .196 and weren't 37 years old.
    I guess that justifies ending a player's career. I'm sure that's how he and his family look at it.
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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by wacha View Post
    -
    False. Phillips was 26 when he suddenly hit 30 homers. He never again came close to that. It would be illogical to believe he wasn't on steroids that year. In fact if you ask any of his close friends they will admit that he took steroids as well.
    Actually, Phillips was 24 when he started his breakthrough year. I'm not sure they teach math in Saint Louis, so I'm going to break it down for you as simply as I can.

    He was born June 28, 1981.

    He started his breakthrough year in April of 2006.

    2006 - 1981 = 25.

    That means he turned 25 on June 28, 2006.

    Which means he was 24 in April of 2006. (See April comes before June)

    Phillips hit 17 home runs that year, his second full year in the majors, with the first one being three years earlier when he was 21. Then the next season, 2007, he hit 32. Then he followed that season with seasons of 21, 20, and then three in row with 18. Here is that progression easier to read form.

    Age HR
    21 - 6
    24 - 17
    25 - 30
    26 - 21
    27 - 20
    28 - 18
    29 - 10
    30 - 18

    That is perfectly natural progression of power numbers that mirrors what literally hundreds of previous players have done in MLB history. The most logical explanation for Phillips power is that he simply has that much power naturally.

    Here's Yadi's home run progression over his career.

    Age HR
    21 - 2
    22 - 8
    23 - 6
    24 - 6
    25 - 7
    26 - 6
    27 - 6
    28 - 14
    29 - 22

    That is not a natural progression of power numbers. That is one that virtually no other player in MLB history has ever had, before steroids become widely used, and then became more common, when steroids were widely used. The most logical explanation for this progression of power numbers is that Molina did something similar to those players that we know used PED's. It doesn't prove that he did, but means the odds are high.

    Btw, I was just kidding about the whole math part, but it's hard to resist making fun of Cardinal fans, lol
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofStLouis View Post
    I guess that justifies ending a player's career. I'm sure that's how he and his family look at it.
    It sucks what happened to him, and Cueto was completely at fault for it, even if it was a complete accident.

    But it's absurd to assume that without the kick to the head, that LaRue would have played the next season. Maybe some team would have signed him, who knows, but history tells us that 37 year old catchers who hit below .200 the year before don't get major league deals the next season.

    It is completely disingenuous to pull out the mock sympathy card and claim that Cueto ended LaRue's career. The reality is that it likely shortened it by around 6 weeks.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    757890: Your argument sounds almost as dumb as RedsfaninMO's.

    Old School 1983: I don't think relief pitchers are a dime a dozen. I do think the closer position is overrated. A team's best relief pitcher should be used in high leverage situations, whether that's in the 6th inning with 2 on and nobody out or the 9th. That's how relief pitchers used to be used, then MLB invented the save stat. That stat changed the way managers used their bullpens, so we have the nonsense we have today, where managers won't use their best relievers in high leverage situations. Managers now save the Chapman's of MLB for the 9th inning. Using Chapman in that way actually makes him LESS valuable than he could be.

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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Actually, Phillips was 24 when he started his breakthrough year. I'm not sure they teach math in Saint Louis, so I'm going to break it down for you as simply as I can.

    He was born June 28, 1981.

    He started his breakthrough year in April of 2006.

    2006 - 1981 = 25.

    That means he turned 25 on June 28, 2006.

    Which means he was 24 in April of 2006. (See April comes before June)

    Phillips hit 17 home runs that year, his second full year in the majors, with the first one being three years earlier when he was 21. Then the next season, 2007, he hit 32. Then he followed that season with seasons of 21, 20, and then three in row with 18. Here is that progression easier to read form.

    Age HR
    21 - 6
    24 - 17
    25 - 30
    26 - 21
    27 - 20
    28 - 18
    29 - 10
    30 - 18

    That is perfectly natural progression of power numbers that mirrors what literally hundreds of previous players have done in MLB history. The most logical explanation for Phillips power is that he simply has that much power naturally.

    Here's Yadi's home run progression over his career.

    Age HR
    21 - 2
    22 - 8
    23 - 6
    24 - 6
    25 - 7
    26 - 6
    27 - 6
    28 - 14
    29 - 22

    That is not a natural progression of power numbers. That is one that virtually no other player in MLB history has ever had, before steroids become widely used, and then became more common, when steroids were widely used. The most logical explanation for this progression of power numbers is that Molina did something similar to those players that we know used PED's. It doesn't prove that he did, but means the odds are high.

    Btw, I was just kidding about the whole math part, but it's hard to resist making fun of Cardinal fans, lol
    -
    Virtually no player? Lol, you're clueless. And how is going from 17 home runs to 30 home runs natural profession? At age 26 he shouldn't see any sudden growth unless he's on steroids. Just like Joe Mauer right?

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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by wacha View Post
    -
    Virtually no player? Lol, you're clueless. And how is going from 17 home runs to 30 home runs natural profession? At age 26 he shouldn't see any sudden growth unless he's on steroids. Just like Joe Mauer right?
    The research has been done in this very thread. Only three other players in the history of MLB before the 1990's have had a similar progression of power as Molina (they were all Cardinals, btw). That is the very definition of virtually none.

    And in a quick search, I found the following current players who went from around 15 homers to around 30 in their careers. In fact, it's over 50% of the players who have had 30 homers that I researched. This isn't all of the current players, just the ones I found in a five minute search on Baseball-Reference. I can only imagine how many players I would find if I took the time and researched all the players in the history of MLB.

    Matt Holliday
    Matt Kemp
    Adam Jones
    Josh Hamilton
    B. J. Upton
    Justin Upton
    Jarrod Saltalmacchia
    Mike Napoli
    Paul Konerko
    Josh Willingham
    Billy Butler
    Curtis Granderson
    Adrian Beltre
    Robinson Cano
    Josh Reddick

    The facts just aren't on your side. But keep trying, this is fun
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    The research has been done in this very thread. Only three other players in the history of MLB before the 1990's have had a similar progression of power as Molina (they were all Cardinals, btw). That is the very definition of virtually none.
    You did not read that post correctly. He did not say those were the only 3 in MLB history. He said (paraphrasing) "here are 3 and they happen to be Cardinals". I am certain that if you bothered to look, you would find hundreds, if not thousands of players with similar progressions of power.

    And that is why I think your argument is so bad.

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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    For the Reds in 2013 it's Votto.

    The guy is a potential HOF talent.

    The reds have been hot during Votto being super hot.

    The guy is in beast mode.

    For the Cards it's Wainwright and Molina.


    Both teams are playoff bound.

    Both teams will win 93-100 games.

    One of them will win the play in game and the both will meet in the NLCS. If the Reds can win a series

    I have a feeling the Reds young guns are experienced, seasoned and ready to roll.

    The cards have had an insane run from 2000-2012. It is a huge factor in breeding success.

    Cubs fans in the mid 2000s overlooked the Cardinals way, now some Red's fans have.

    I have mad respect for the Reds, Walt, Dusty, Votto and the youth program the Reds have built.

    If Major League Baseball wasn't ran by idiots.

    We would have a two division format.

    The 1st and 2nd place teams would face off in a 7 game series. 1st place get's home field that would be games 3-6. Giving them a huge advantage during crunch time.

    Either way the Reds and Cards would have already faced off in 2010 and 2012.

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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    The research has been done in this very thread. Only three other players in the history of MLB before the 1990's have had a similar progression of power as Molina (they were all Cardinals, btw). That is the very definition of virtually none.


    The facts just aren't on your side.
    But keep trying, this is fun
    What?

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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by Beltway View Post
    You did not read that post correctly. He did not say those were the only 3 in MLB history. He said (paraphrasing) "here are 3 and they happen to be Cardinals". I am certain that if you bothered to look, you would find hundreds, if not thousands of players with similar progressions of power.

    And that is why I think your argument is so bad.
    Seriously? There are hundreds if not thousands of MLB players before the 1990's, who had single digit homers for six years, then at age 28 suddenly hit 14 in one year and then 22 the next? There are hundreds if not thousands of MLB players before the 1990's, who went from six users of sub .700 OPS to two years of over .800 OPS at age 28? Seriously?

    Name 10. I dare you. I dare anyone. If there are as many as you say, it should be a piece of cake to find 10.

    It really is a extremely rare feat, one that very rarely occurred before the steroid ERA.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    It sucks what happened to him, and Cueto was completely at fault for it, even if it was a complete accident.

    But it's absurd to assume that without the kick to the head, that LaRue would have played the next season. Maybe some team would have signed him, who knows, but history tells us that 37 year old catchers who hit below .200 the year before don't get major league deals the next season.

    It is completely disingenuous to pull out the mock sympathy card and claim that Cueto ended LaRue's career. The reality is that it likely shortened it by around 6 weeks.
    It happened on August 10. On September 19 (about 6 weeks later), after an examination showed that he still had bruising on the brain, he admitted he couldn't drive or ride in a car, so he announced his retirement.

    "I was going to retire on my own terms," LaRue said, according to the report. "It's unfortunate that the blow that decided it came from someone kicking me in the head with spikes. I wouldn't say I would change things if you could rewrite history. They say things happen for certain reasons. In this case, I couldn't tell you why. Does it suck that my career is over because Johnny Cueto started kicking me in the head? Yes, it sucks.
    I think it is disingenuous to trivialize a career ending injury because, in your opinion, it only cost a player 6 weeks (actually 8) of his career.

    From what I read, it didn't sound like LaRue was quite ready to hang 'em up. Considering that of the 2 catchers in position to replace LaRue (see article), neither earned the job, there was a good chance that Jason would have been retained. He was popular with the team for the way he handled the pitchers, which explains why he had been with the team for 3 years as a back up. That's not the norm for back up catchers.

    Cueto should praise him for taking the high road. He could have filed charges and then sued him in civil court, but he chose not to.

    All I can say is that if it had happened to a Red, seeing the feelings most Cincinnati fans have for the Cardinals, it would be a much bigger deal than the Cardinals and their fans have made it.


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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by Beltway View Post
    You did not read that post correctly. He did not say those were the only 3 in MLB history. He said (paraphrasing) "here are 3 and they happen to be Cardinals". I am certain that if you bothered to look, you would find hundreds, if not thousands of players with similar progressions of power.

    And that is why I think your argument is so bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofStLouis View Post
    It happened on August 10. On September 19 (about 6 weeks later), after an examination showed that he still had bruising on the brain, he admitted he couldn't drive or ride in a car, so he announced his retirement.



    I think it is disingenuous to trivialize a career ending injury because, in your opinion, it only cost a player 6 weeks (actually 8) of his career.

    From what I read, it didn't sound like LaRue was quite ready to hang 'em up. Considering that of the 2 catchers in position to replace LaRue (see article), neither earned the job, there was a good chance that Jason would have been retained. He was popular with the team for the way he handled the pitchers, which explains why he had been with the team for 3 years as a back up. That's not the norm for back up catchers.

    Cueto should praise him for taking the high road. He could have filed charges and then sued him in civil court, but he chose not to.

    All I can say is that if it had happened to a Red, seeing the feelings most Cincinnati fans have for the Cardinals, it would be a much bigger deal than the Cardinals and their fans have made it.


    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5592023
    Whose trivializing the injury? Remember LaRue was a long time Red and very popular. Most Reds fans felt horrible about what happened to him. Like I said, it sucks.

    But what we all should be focusing on is not how his affected his career as a Cardinal, that's an incredibly selfish and petty way of looking at this. What sucks is that LaRue's head probably will never be 100% right ever again. His life will much more difficult now. The tragedy is on a personal level, not a professional one.

    And there is no way LaRue could sue anyone for this injury. If that was the case, every hockey and football player would be sued every day.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.


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