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Thread: Most important player to NL Central teams

  1. #91
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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by Beltway View Post
    757890: Your argument sounds almost as dumb as RedsfaninMO's.

    Old School 1983: I don't think relief pitchers are a dime a dozen. I do think the closer position is overrated. A team's best relief pitcher should be used in high leverage situations, whether that's in the 6th inning with 2 on and nobody out or the 9th. That's how relief pitchers used to be used, then MLB invented the save stat. That stat changed the way managers used their bullpens, so we have the nonsense we have today, where managers won't use their best relievers in high leverage situations. Managers now save the Chapman's of MLB for the 9th inning. Using Chapman in that way actually makes him LESS valuable than he could be.
    I completely agree with you on the fact that the best reliever should be used in the high leverage situation. By not doing so it just doesn't devalue chapman, but other great relievers throughout the league. My comments about relievers being a dime a dozen wasn't directed personally at you. It was kind of towards a lot if people on redzone who believe that any scrap heap guy could close and be good at it. I think about any dude could rack up a bunch if saves, but I see saves as a manufactured, skewed stat, that has been devalued even since its creation, so it isn't a very good way to evaluate a closer or any relievers real worth.

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  3. #92
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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Whose trivializing the injury? Remember LaRue was a long time Red and very popular. Most Reds fans felt horrible about what happened to him. Like I said, it sucks.

    But what we all should be focusing on is not how his affected his career as a Cardinal, that's an incredibly selfish and petty way of looking at this. What sucks is that LaRue's head probably will never be 100% right ever again. His life will much more difficult now. The tragedy is on a personal level, not a professional one.

    And there is no way LaRue could sue anyone for this injury. If that was the case, every hockey and football player would be sued every day.
    Technically, I'm sure a good lawyer could argue that the incident didn't fall under the scope of a " baseball related injury ". The fact that it was brought up in the article proves that in some way, shape or form, the possibility existed.

    You are the one who trivialized it stating that it only shortened his career by 6 weeks and that he probably wouldn't have played the next year anyway.

    There are a lot of articles you can look up in which Canadian law enforcement filed charges against players for incidents on the ice. In addition, LaRue was entitled by law to sue Cueto in civil court even if criminal charges were never filed.

    I also believe that over a hundred former NFL players are currently suing the league over head injuries. The league will no doubt argue that those injuries occurred as a result of play on the field.

    Cueto can't claim that.
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  4. #93
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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Are we still arguing about that fight in 2010. Like in most fights both sides played a hand. Lets get over it and worry about baseball.

  5. #94
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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Seriously? There are hundreds if not thousands of MLB players before the 1990's, who had single digit homers for six years, then at age 28 suddenly hit 14 in one year and then 22 the next? There are hundreds if not thousands of MLB players before the 1990's, who went from six users of sub .700 OPS to two years of over .800 OPS at age 28? Seriously?

    Name 10. I dare you. I dare anyone. If there are as many as you say, it should be a piece of cake to find 10.

    It really is a extremely rare feat, one that very rarely occurred before the steroid ERA.
    Is that your criteria, specifically? Must have at least 6 seasons of single digit homeruns, then hit 14 at the age of 28 and 22 at the age of 29? If so, then Molina might be the only one in MLB history. None of the 3 people listed by the previous poster fit that criteria either. Jose Cardenal hit 11 HRs his first season in MLB, at the age of 22. Terry Pendleton had his first double digit homerun season in his 3rd MLB season, at the age of 27. Red Schoendienst had his first double digit HR season at the age of 30.

    The criteria that would fit all of those hitters, along with Molina absolutely would include hundreds, if not thousands of hitters. But you're not looking for an honest debate here. You're on an anti-Molina soapbox, which is your right, but your argument is dumb.

    What I see with Molina is this. He is at his peak, offensively. The year he hit 22 HRs, maybe he got lucky and got under a few more balls that would have normally been doubles. That's it. It's statistical variation coupled with a player being at his peak, offensively.

  6. #95
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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by Beltway View Post

    What I see with Molina is this. He is at his peak, offensively. The year he hit 22 HRs, maybe he got lucky and got under a few more balls that would have normally been doubles. That's it. It's statistical variation coupled with a player being at his peak, offensively.
    Getting under hits that are usually going to be doubles. I think Roger Maris said something similar to that about his 61 homer season. His previous career high was 39 that's a huge jump. The fact of the matter is stuff like that can happen for season or two.

    As far as PEDs, at this point in the game it wouldn't surprise me if any player was found to use them, but lets save the accusations and finger pointing to when there is actual evidence to it like a connection to a biogenesis or a failed test.

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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by Beltway View Post
    Is that your criteria, specifically? Must have at least 6 seasons of single digit homeruns, then hit 14 at the age of 28 and 22 at the age of 29? If so, then Molina might be the only one in MLB history. None of the 3 people listed by the previous poster fit that criteria either. Jose Cardenal hit 11 HRs his first season in MLB, at the age of 22. Terry Pendleton had his first double digit homerun season in his 3rd MLB season, at the age of 27. Red Schoendienst had his first double digit HR season at the age of 30.

    The criteria that would fit all of those hitters, along with Molina absolutely would include hundreds, if not thousands of hitters. But you're not looking for an honest debate here. You're on an anti-Molina soapbox, which is your right, but your argument is dumb.

    What I see with Molina is this. He is at his peak, offensively. The year he hit 22 HRs, maybe he got lucky and got under a few more balls that would have normally been doubles. That's it. It's statistical variation coupled with a player being at his peak, offensively.
    Forget the first part with actual HR totals. Show me ten examples of guys, who went from six users of sub .700 OPS to two years of over .800 OPS at age 28?

    Our resident historian, WOY, could only find three.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  8. #97
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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    Getting under hits that are usually going to be doubles. I think Roger Maris said something similar to that about his 61 homer season. His previous career high was 39 that's a huge jump. The fact of the matter is stuff like that can happen for season or two.

    As far as PEDs, at this point in the game it wouldn't surprise me if any player was found to use them, but lets save the accusations and finger pointing to when there is actual evidence to it like a connection to a biogenesis or a failed test.
    Well, the Maris jump was projected by many at the time because of expansion and a weakening of the pitching talent pool. Much was written before the season that this would be season that someone broke Ruth's record. Teams as a whole hit around 20 more HR's that year than the previous year. And Maris did lead the league in HR's the year before. It really wasn't surprising, even at the time.

    And I'm not make accusations. I have stated over and over again that I am not saying that Molina used PED's. I am saying that logic and research tells us that the most logical explanation of his recent power surge is that he is getting some unnatural help. I will gladly admit that another possible explanation is pure luck, as Beltway described. I just think the PED use is more logical and more likely, especially given who his hitting coach was, and who his manager was, and his change in physique.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  9. #98
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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Forget the first part with actual HR totals. Show me ten examples of guys, who went from six users of sub .700 OPS to two years of over .800 OPS at age 28?

    Our resident historian, WOY, could only find three.
    This is such a waste of time because you're wrong on all counts. None of the players mentioned, had six seasons of sub .700 OPS followed by years of .800+ OPS at age 28, not even Yadier Molina. I don't think you have the slightest idea what you're even talking about. You're just on a soapbox. So I'll leave you alone to shout at the world.

    Good luck.

  10. #99
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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by Beltway View Post
    This is such a waste of time because you're wrong on all counts. None of the players mentioned, had six seasons of sub .700 OPS followed by years of .800+ OPS at age 28, not even Yadier Molina. I don't think you have the slightest idea what you're even talking about. You're just on a soapbox. So I'll leave you alone to shout at the world.

    Good luck.
    Sorry, my bad, I meant six years averaging below .700 OPS.

    I'm just shouting facts. Ignore them if you will.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  11. #100
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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by Beltway View Post
    This is such a waste of time because you're wrong on all counts. None of the players mentioned, had six seasons of sub .700 OPS followed by years of .800+ OPS at age 28, not even Yadier Molina. I don't think you have the slightest idea what you're even talking about. You're just on a soapbox. So I'll leave you alone to shout at the world.

    Good luck.
    Molina's OPS by year:

    2007- .708
    2008- .740
    2009- .749
    2010- .671
    2011- .814
    2012- .874

    Outside of one bad year in 2010 it was trending in the .800+ direction. Also a players Prime Years are usually between Age 28 and 32. It's natural for a players best numbers to go on an uptick during that time. Which in Molina's case obviously they did.

    And by the way I don't know anybody that would call a 22 homerun year an above average power year. 22 homeruns is maybe slightly above average if anything.

  12. #101
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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Sorry, my bad, I meant six years averaging below .700 OPS.

    I'm just shouting facts. Ignore them if you will.
    Molina went from a career OPS of .688 to .733 over the last seasons. Conspiracy!

    I know I shouldn't haven't responded to this and I feel kind of dirty defending a Cardinals player this much, but bad arguments bother me even more. I'm done for realz now.

  13. #102
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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by jlcomo View Post
    Molina's OPS by year:

    2007- .708
    2008- .740
    2009- .749
    2010- .671
    2011- .814
    2012- .874

    Outside of one bad year in 2010 it was trending in the .800+ direction. Also a players Prime Years are usually between Age 28 and 32. It's natural for a players best numbers to go on an uptick during that time. Which in Molina's case obviously they did.

    And by the way I don't know anybody that would call a 22 homerun year an above average power year. 22 homeruns is maybe slightly above average if anything.
    When studying trend lines, you can't just toss out individual years that don't fit the story you want to tell. The fact that he had one of his worse years, right before his power explosion, actually provides more reason to be suspicious than less.

    And Yadi was 28th overall in the league in HR's last year. I'd say that's well above average.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    When studying trend lines, you can't just toss out individual years that don't fit the story you want to tell. The fact that he had one of his worse years, right before his power explosion, actually provides more reason to be suspicious than less.

    And Yadi was 28th overall in the league in HR's last year. I'd say that's well above average.
    Spin, spin, spin, spin, spin.

    So because he had 1 bad year followed by a good year that proves your point? The fact of the matter is his career was trending up anyways and having one bad year doesn't change that.

    You're making yourself look dumb with this charade in trying to prove Molina uses Steroids. Saying Molina uses Steroids because you read it on other message boards is like me saying Joey Votto is gay because it's been whispered for years on other message boards.

  15. #104
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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by jlcomo View Post
    Spin, spin, spin, spin, spin.

    So because he had 1 bad year followed by a good year that proves your point? The fact of the matter is his career was trending up anyways and having one bad year doesn't change that.

    You're making yourself look dumb with this charade in trying to prove Molina uses Steroids. Saying Molina uses Steroids because you read it on other message boards is like me saying Joey Votto is gay because it's been whispered for years on other message boards.
    There is factual evidence that taken as a whole, strongly suggests Molina did something unnatural to gain a significant amount of power in a very short time.

    Throwing the Votto/gay rumor out there is just silly. To be honest, it might be true, and who cares? The point is that there is no factual evidence to back it up.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  16. #105
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    Re: Most important player to NL Central teams

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    When studying trend lines, you can't just toss out individual years that don't fit the story you want to tell. The fact that he had one of his worse years, right before his power explosion, actually provides more reason to be suspicious than less.

    And Yadi was 28th overall in the league in HR's last year. I'd say that's well above average.
    You didn't have any problem throwing out Votto's significant drop in HRs last year. I think you wrote it up to " coming off an injury ". Well, Molina missed 26 games in 2010 (the most in his career since he became a starter), and his statistics reflected it.

    Face facts, your supposition that Yadi's increased power numbers over the last 2 years might be due to PED use is flawed. Even fellow Reds fans have admitted as much.

    Cut your losses and move on, you're acting foolish.
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