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Thread: Response to Rolen over Frazier

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    Response to Rolen over Frazier

    I'm new to this forum and the first thread I thought would be interesting was from the Old Red Guard. It was asking if Scott Rolen would be an improvement over Frazier in this years lineup but it was kind of sad to see that the topic wasn't taken seriously whatsoever. Most comments and responses were just picking on the original poster and those that might have given a proper discussion on the matter had to stand up for the poster at that point. So I pose the question, would Scott Rolen really be such a downgrade to Frazier? I'm a huge fan of Frazier's work ethic and I love what he brings to the club but I am also a huge fan of the game itself and I will admit that Rolen's leadership and experience outweighs a good personality all day. If you look at Rolen's last couple years with the team, though injury prone, his numbers are most likely not going to be overtaken by Frazier. I would give away Fraziers power edge to Rolen's ability to hit in actual clutch situations and I don't even feel that Rolen's defense compared to Fraziers is worth the discussion. Basically, I'm not seeing a sophomore slump, I'm seeing the kind of player he will be throughout his career. This team might be the best chance for the Reds and I cant see any scenario where a player like Rolen hurts the team.

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Wow. I think this could be the first post ever where someone actually agrees with my assessment of Frazier not being quite as good as people think. I honestly think its a super legitimate question. To say fraziers bat has been a disappoint this year would be an understatement. In my personal option I think he has a poor approach at the plate and is very undisciplined. I also think he feasts off of poor pitching and it has inflated his power numbers like homers slugging and ops. When comparing him to rolen you have to give the edge in power at this point to Frazier. But to me the ability to give a tough at bat against anything that is above average pitching, to me has to go to rolen. As well as plate approach and clutch hitting ability. On the defensive end I've taken a lot of grief for saying that Frazier is not as good as people think. I do think he has improved his D and that is a factor of his good work ethic. But there is no way you can compare fraziers D to rolens even at an old age. I wasn't around to see brooks Robinson play, but judging from the highlights I've seen Scott is the closest thing to him in my lifetime. There is also the question of leadership versus personality I have to go with veteran leadership.

    So my overall view on the whole thing is that it is a lot closer than people want to think. The dude on ORG had made some assinine threads but this one I think warranted more discussion. My basic opinion with fraziers current performance would be a slight edge in rolens favor. Rolens defense was insane, he could give a tougher at bat against better pitching and bring veteran respected leadership. Frazier has better power and health. So more or less if I coached the reds rolen would get the nod and Frazier would play fill in against lesser pitchers so he could put his superior power to use.

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Conceding to the idea for the sake of argument that Fraziers offense has the edge over Rolen, when I watch the games Fraziers defense seems suspect. I know I can be quoted stats all day as far as fielding percentage and all that goes but in the end stats only say so much and play speaks for itself. When Rolen would field the ball you knew it would be done properly and I just don't see that in Fraziers play. Another issue that I think people are apprehensive to mention is the lack of confidence it seems the other infielders have in reviving the ball from Frazier. One day Votto might just end up run over when Frazier sails a throw and to me you can see that fear a bit in Votto at first. I'm not ready to do away with Frazier all together. He most definitely as some great intangibles but to say Rolen would have no place and to try and to say that Frazier is some rising star, or even has potential to be anything more than what he has shown, are both thoughts/statements that fall into the category of assenine.

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Rolen was a great player in his prime, right now he isn't anywhere near the value of Frazier. Frazier is a key player on this team and has earned the right to be the everyday starting 3rd basemen for the Reds.

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    Vottomatic (05-22-2013)

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    I think Fraziers earned playing time but at the same time anybody can put the effort forth to earn a job. But effort alone doesn't mean they can do that job.

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    The topic wasn't taken seriously I would imagine because it shouldn't be taken seriously.

    Rolen is 38 years old. His wOBA over his last two years he played were .314 and .294.

    Frazier is 27 years old. His wOBA over the last two year's he's played are .312 and .354

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    Vottomatic (05-22-2013)

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    I think people expect Frazier to be average at the plate and pretty good defensively. His defense has improved a lot and they praised him on the broadcasts a lot during the Mets series, and deservedly so.

    Todd wasn't even that great a hitter in the minors. He was average, which is why many were surprised he has done this well in the majors. Late bloomer? call it what you want.........but he is not horrible or great. He's average.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    I think people expect Frazier to be average at the plate and pretty good defensively. His defense has improved a lot and they praised him on the broadcasts a lot during the Mets series, and deservedly so.

    Todd wasn't even that great a hitter in the minors. He was average, which is why many were surprised he has done this well in the majors. Late bloomer? call it what you want.........but he is not horrible or great. He's average.
    Which would be fine. An average hitter with his defense at 3rd is probably what, a 2 win player? I'd take that.

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Rolen is a washed up has been. Being a good clubhouse leader means nothing unless your club is winning and with Rolen we wouldn't be. Frazier is just off to a slow start, but he'll be one of the top 5 3B in the game by the numbers at the end of the year. Just say no to Rolen and his baggage.

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by Goose1701 View Post
    The topic wasn't taken seriously I would imagine because it shouldn't be taken seriously.

    Rolen is 38 years old. His wOBA over his last two years he played were .314 and .294.

    Frazier is 27 years old. His wOBA over the last two year's he's played are .312 and .354
    And fraziers wOBA this year thus far is 315. You can't deny Frazier did well last year but I think 315 is more realistic for Frazier than last years .354. I can think of three hits all year Frazier has had against what could be classified against anything as an above average pitcher. Fraziers at bats are generally undisciplined and of poor quality. Rolen did have the ability last year to bear down and hit any type of pitching last year. I know that's very 1999 pre SABR of me but it is true. As far as defense goes there is no comparison at any age and if anyone tries to argue that they need to watch more baseball and less fan graphs UZR. As Frazier sits right now slight advantage in my mind goes to Scott. If Todd can prove he's really a .354 wOBA guy and not .315 then we can make a better case for Todd. I still say at this point this year Frazier vs last year rolen the advantage goes to Scott.

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    It confuses me too to why a lot of people think Frazier is just going to take off and be this great top 5 MLB third baseman. He had averagish numbers in the minors. In 2011 he looked like a spare piece. He had a great 2012 and definitely earned a spot on the team and in fans hearts, but so far in 2013 he has looked like 2011 Frazier. Couple that with his plate approach and the fact that most of the data suggests a Frazier closer to 2011 than 2012, and it could really be argued that it'd be equally as logical to think he may stay at or slightly above his current offensive level of production.

    I don't want this to be true. I'd love to see him take off. I'm a reds fan. I want all of the guys to do great and the team to win, but to automatically assume that a player will repeat career year type numbers when his minor league numbers and his other major league numbers point to him not being at that level is not sound thinking.

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    I think people expect Frazier to be average at the plate and pretty good defensively. His defense has improved a lot and they praised him on the broadcasts a lot during the Mets series, and deservedly so.

    Todd wasn't even that great a hitter in the minors. He was average, which is why many were surprised he has done this well in the majors. Late bloomer? call it what you want.........but he is not horrible or great. He's average.
    I think average is a good description of Todd if he was hitting around 250 to 260 and having a little more plate discipline. I hope he can adjust. When he was off to his torrid start I noticed he was laying off the outside breaking ball better than now. Hopefully he can adjust and stay back and I think he'll be a good piece.

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    It confuses me too to why a lot of people think Frazier is just going to take off and be this great top 5 MLB third baseman. He had averagish numbers in the minors. In 2011 he looked like a spare piece. He had a great 2012 and definitely earned a spot on the team and in fans hearts, but so far in 2013 he has looked like 2011 Frazier. Couple that with his plate approach and the fact that most of the data suggests a Frazier closer to 2011 than 2012, and it could really be argued that it'd be equally as logical to think he may stay at or slightly above his current offensive level of production.

    I don't want this to be true. I'd love to see him take off. I'm a reds fan. I want all of the guys to do great and the team to win, but to automatically assume that a player will repeat career year type numbers when his minor league numbers and his other major league numbers point to him not being at that level is not sound thinking.
    Playing devil's advocate..........you've mentioned the idea of trading Frazier in other threads.

    If you think Frazier's value is so low and he's not that good.........then why do you think some other team would want him?

    Another way of looking at it from Reds management point of view is that not every player on the field can be a high salary guy. Reds are smaller market and have to mix in young players making closer to the minimum and under control for awhile such as Cozart and Frazier. The idea that they can obtain and pay ..........and nobody has brought this name up.......this is just for argument's sake to prove a point.........but say Hanley Ramirez at SS and maybe Chase Headley or David Wright at 3B, to go with BP, Votto, Bruce, Ludwick, Choo, and a boatload of the pitching staff making big money................there's just not enough money to go around. They have to balance out the payroll more than a lot of teams do.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    Playing devil's advocate..........you've mentioned the idea of trading Frazier in other threads.

    If you think Frazier's value is so low and he's not that good.........then why do you think some other team would want him?

    Another way of looking at it from Reds management point of view is that not every player on the field can be a high salary guy. Reds are smaller market and have to mix in young players making closer to the minimum and under control for awhile such as Cozart and Frazier. The idea that they can obtain and pay ..........and nobody has brought this name up.......this is just for argument's sake to prove a point.........but say Hanley Ramirez at SS and maybe Chase Headley or David Wright at 3B, to go with BP, Votto, Bruce, Ludwick, Choo, and a boatload of the pitching staff making big money................there's just not enough money to go around. They have to balance out the payroll more than a lot of teams do.
    Your reasoning for the reds front office is the exact reasoning another front office would use in acquiring a player like Frazier along with prospects for a higher quality player. Frazier when playing at a better clip than now offers pretty good bang for the buck. Plus they'd get other prospects. I see Frazier as a trade chip not because I think he is horrible (different than overrated by fans like I say he is) but because he does have that bang for the buck value and he is a like a lot of the plsyers the reds have. Feast or famine type hitter. I think the reds need some more disciplined type bats in order to do well in the playoffs, which I'm sure we all can agree on, is a different beast than the regular season. If the reds can get a guy like the ones you mentioned ( I don't like Hanley) I think they could handle a temporary spending bump this year and even things out with a few moves in the offseason.

    They would acquire Frazier because he is what I think he is and was with the reds last year. An excellent place holder for a better player. For example if traded in a move for Headley he could be inserted in the padres lineup and still give good quality major league power, while the real heart of the deal would probably be the prospects namely pitchers that's go the other way. Her be a place holder. To offset the budget maybe the reds could dump a ludwick off to the Yankees in the offseason or a chapman for a prospect like I see in many threads here. Maybe they don't bring choo back and go Headley at third and Hamilton in center. There are payroll options. It's just has to do with the amount if risk Walt and co are willing to take.
    Last edited by Old school 1983; 05-22-2013 at 08:49 PM.

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    88, 40, 133, 65, 92

    Those are the number of games Rolen played in each of the last five years of his career.

    You can't really help a team if you're not actually on the field. Being another year older I wouldn't suspect Rolen's health would miraculously turn around and he'd be this 149 game playing Ironman or something. And let's not forget that his defense hurt this team in the playoffs with a couple of botched plays.

    From a 'career' standpoint, obviously Rolen would be the guy. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that.

    I, too, like Rolen's leadership and clubhouse presence...but the Reds made the right call going with Frazier.


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