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Thread: Response to Rolen over Frazier

  1. #16
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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBrick View Post
    88, 40, 133, 65, 92

    Those are the number of games Rolen played in each of the last five years of his career.

    You can't really help a team if you're not actually on the field. Being another year older I wouldn't suspect Rolen's health would miraculously turn around and he'd be this 149 game playing Ironman or something. And let's not forget that his defense hurt this team in the playoffs with a couple of botched plays.

    From a 'career' standpoint, obviously Rolen would be the guy. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that.

    I, too, like Rolen's leadership and clubhouse presence...but the Reds made the right call going with Frazier.
    If you're referring to the play in game three if fraziers out there no one would talk about it. Not because he'd make they but because its not even have been as close as rolen made it.

    I didn't expect a miracle healing but I still think the team is better if rolen is around and Frazier fills in against lower level pitchers.
    Last edited by Old school 1983; 05-23-2013 at 06:59 AM.

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  3. #17
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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Reading through most threads in support of Frazier it seems like youd pretty much need a baseball Rosseta Stone to interpret some of the stats used to justify why he's good for the team. The tactic of constantly reminding someone how nice the person you're setting them up with instead of saying what actually makes them horrible falls short on me. Especially when most times you need to go so far down the baseball stat lines to do so. I can't see Rolen being an everyday player at this point in his career but I can see many ways that he could be a benefit to this Reds team. Frazier deserves a chance to play. Against the teams he can feast off of, but keeping him in the lineup against the better teams is a detriment. When you compare the stats of Frazier from teams you should beat and teams you need to prove you can beat its a case of deception. He's average against the mediocre and down right awful at times when facing higher quality teams. Simply put, his ability against the subpar this far masks his overall poor performance. There is an issue rising up of Fraziers glorification from average to potential star when it just seems like he is an over played backup. Rolen could have been a good fit to go along with another average player but at this point there's just too much of an unrealistic view of Frazier by Reds fans that maybe keeping him around isn't the best option. Frazier will prove to be nothing more than an average "power" hitter who strikes out too much (any comparison to Jay Bruce is laughable) and that's not the kind of average this team needs. Even Choo and Votto have a tendency to strike out at a high clip and they are our teams elite hitters. I'd take a good at bat against ever team over a home run every now and then against a mediocre team all day. By this time the discussion really isn't whether Rolen would be better over Frazier, it's that Frazier,though average, isn't the type of player the team needs. He has good trade value but little or no value as an everyday player, Scott Rolen or no Scott Rolen.

  4. #18
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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by FanoftheGame34 View Post
    Reading through most threads in support of Frazier it seems like youd pretty much need a baseball Rosseta Stone to interpret some of the stats used to justify why he's good for the team. The tactic of constantly reminding someone how nice the person you're setting them up with instead of saying what actually makes them horrible falls short on me. Especially when most times you need to go so far down the baseball stat lines to do so. I can't see Rolen being an everyday player at this point in his career but I can see many ways that he could be a benefit to this Reds team. Frazier deserves a chance to play. Against the teams he can feast off of, but keeping him in the lineup against the better teams is a detriment. When you compare the stats of Frazier from teams you should beat and teams you need to prove you can beat its a case of deception. He's average against the mediocre and down right awful at times when facing higher quality teams. Simply put, his ability against the subpar this far masks his overall poor performance. There is an issue rising up of Fraziers glorification from average to potential star when it just seems like he is an over played backup. Rolen could have been a good fit to go along with another average player but at this point there's just too much of an unrealistic view of Frazier by Reds fans that maybe keeping him around isn't the best option. Frazier will prove to be nothing more than an average "power" hitter who strikes out too much (any comparison to Jay Bruce is laughable) and that's not the kind of average this team needs. Even Choo and Votto have a tendency to strike out at a high clip and they are our teams elite hitters. I'd take a good at bat against ever team over a home run every now and then against a mediocre team all day. By this time the discussion really isn't whether Rolen would be better over Frazier, it's that Frazier,though average, isn't the type of player the team needs. He has good trade value but little or no value as an everyday player, Scott Rolen or no Scott Rolen.
    I agree that a rolen and Frazier mixture would be a better situation for the reds, but you are correct in the fact that really isn't the issue anymore. I see your description of fraziers performance to be pretty accurate. He feasts off of poor teams and isn't the kind of average the team needs. I'd much rather have a batter than can work consistent good at bats. The reds already have too many of the high strike out type of player even in their elite hitters. They need more professional types that work pitchers and give great at bats across the board. Those type of players can be the glue that hold the lineup together, enable a good at bat between elite hitters, and give value in playoff situations in working pitchers and getting pitch counts up.

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    And fraziers wOBA this year thus far is 315. You can't deny Frazier did well last year but I think 315 is more realistic for Frazier than last years .354. I can think of three hits all year Frazier has had against what could be classified against anything as an above average pitcher. Fraziers at bats are generally undisciplined and of poor quality. Rolen did have the ability last year to bear down and hit any type of pitching last year. I know that's very 1999 pre SABR of me but it is true. As far as defense goes there is no comparison at any age and if anyone tries to argue that they need to watch more baseball and less fan graphs UZR. As Frazier sits right now slight advantage in my mind goes to Scott. If Todd can prove he's really a .354 wOBA guy and not .315 then we can make a better case for Todd. I still say at this point this year Frazier vs last year rolen the advantage goes to Scott.
    Rolen hasn't been "good" since 2010 and even then his numbers were not stunning. I think you view on Scott is kinda clouded, he was a great player in his prime, but with age his skills diminshed...

  6. #20
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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Frazier is on pace for 100 RBIs this year, you'd only get that from Rolen if he was able to stay on the field. It would have been nice to have Rolen as a bench player this year however.

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Fan View Post
    Rolen hasn't been "good" since 2010 and even then his numbers were not stunning. I think you view on Scott is kinda clouded, he was a great player in his prime, but with age his skills diminshed...
    It's hard to describe fraziers play as good this year as well.

  8. #22
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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by Rantly View Post
    Frazier is on pace for 100 RBIs this year, you'd only get that from Rolen if he was able to stay on the field. It would have been nice to have Rolen as a bench player this year however.
    I think that goes along with my line of thinking where rolen gets the nod versus certain teams and pitchers and Todd in others.

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    If you really cannot figure out why a statement like

    "Now it looks like Frazier is turning into the dud that he was initially projected to be, and we have no replacement for him..nor Cozart.

    LMAO."

    did not go over well and got the OP negative attention, I really don't know what to tell you other than that you are in the wrong place.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

  10. #24
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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    If you really cannot figure out why a statement like

    "Now it looks like Frazier is turning into the dud that he was initially projected to be, and we have no replacement for him..nor Cozart.

    LMAO."

    did not go over well and got the OP negative attention, I really don't know what to tell you other than that you are in the wrong place.
    Frazier is kinda turning out to be dud based on many posters expectations of him on here. He's gone from being described as one of the best 3rd basemen in the game by some to average at this point. I think sure some of the guys posts were assinine like the DFA cozart one, but he is right Frazier and cozart were expected to perform better and we do not have immediate solutions for them.

    And idk what you mean by in the wrong place. If a player who is obviously not performing to his expected level cannot be legitimately crictized based on his plate approach and the up and down nature of his numbers, and the fact that there is evidence that last year may have been a career year then I'm not so sure what is considered legitimate discussion.

  11. #25
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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Having said that, the guy who started that thread has shown troll like behavior but maybe instead of getting all worked up about it his posts just ought to be ignored. If he really is a troll he's probably getting his jollies on the fact that so many people reacted to him.

    On the other hand it seems as if the starter if this thread posed the question in a legitimate way, that coupled with fraziers performance thus far, to me, warrants a discussion of the topic of Frazier v Rolen as well as fraziers performance in general.

  12. #26
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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    Frazier is kinda turning out to be dud based on many posters expectations of him on here. He's gone from being described as one of the best 3rd basemen in the game by some to average at this point. I think sure some of the guys posts were assinine like the DFA cozart one, but he is right Frazier and cozart were expected to perform better and we do not have immediate solutions for them.

    And idk what you mean by in the wrong place. If a player who is obviously not performing to his expected level cannot be legitimately crictized based on his plate approach and the up and down nature of his numbers, and the fact that there is evidence that last year may have been a career year then I'm not so sure what is considered legitimate discussion.
    Frazier played 41 games in 2011, and 128 last year making this really his second year in the majors, so, I guess by that definition and with only 1 year to judge, you're right.....last year was a career year for his short career so far. I guess that's what you're referring to as 'fact'.

    I may at some point decide that Frazier wasn't the player I'd hoped he'd be....but I'm gonna give him some time before making that decision. As for Frazier's glove...the Reds haven't missed a beat there...he's 4th in MLB in fielding % for 3rd basemen having committed only 2 errors.

  13. #27
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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBrick View Post
    Frazier played 41 games in 2011, and 128 last year making this really his second year in the majors, so, I guess by that definition and with only 1 year to judge, you're right.....last year was a career year for his short career so far. I guess that's what you're referring to as 'fact'.

    I may at some point decide that Frazier wasn't the player I'd hoped he'd be....but I'm gonna give him some time before making that decision. As for Frazier's glove...the Reds haven't missed a beat there...he's 4th in MLB in fielding % for 3rd basemen having committed only 2 errors.
    Frazier never was an elite level minor leaguer either and it's pretty clear that his plate approach is sporadic and undisciplined leading to up and down type numbers.

    And comparing fraziers defense based on fielding percentages to rolens is like saying that Darwin Barney was the legitimate good glove winner over Phillips last year. Anyone who watches the two play knows better.

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    It's hard to describe fraziers play as good this year as well.
    I guess we would disagree then, sure he went through a mean slump, what young players don't, but overall, right now he is producing on a nice level for a 2nd year player and is only going to get better.

  15. #29
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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Fan View Post
    I guess we would disagree then, sure he went through a mean slump, what young players don't, but overall, right now he is producing on a nice level for a 2nd year player and is only going to get better.
    Like I've said all year....not consistent enough of a plate approach to consistently hit good pitching. His numbers may jump up a little bit against averagish to poor teams but will go back down against better competition.

  16. #30
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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    I'll say this. If fraziers numbers increase all year it'll be because dusty uses him in a platoon situation I've called for. Hannahan versus tough righties and Frazier against lefties and soft righties he can exploit.


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