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Thread: Response to Rolen over Frazier

  1. #31
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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    Frazier never was an elite level minor leaguer either and it's pretty clear that his plate approach is sporadic and undisciplined leading to up and down type numbers.

    And comparing fraziers defense based on fielding percentages to rolens is like saying that Darwin Barney was the legitimate good glove winner over Phillips last year. Anyone who watches the two play knows better.
    Watch all you want...I'm just looking at results. Frazier has done the job in the field. I'm not making any comparison. Obviously he has a long way to go before I compare him with Scott Rolen's glove. I'm saying he's committed only 2 errors in the field....not bad for a guy who sucks.

    It's as simple as this, you've written him off, I haven't. I think the Reds made the right call in going with Frazier, you don't. In the meantime, the Reds had plenty of time to reverse their decision because Rolen didn't sign with anyone else....and still hasn't.

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    RedlegJake (05-23-2013)

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  4. #32
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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Frazier is a nice player, and more reliable than Rolen, but--Frazier and Cozart will only be 4 to 6 year pieces.

    Don Cameron
    The voice of reason

  5. #33
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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBrick View Post
    Watch all you want...I'm just looking at results. Frazier has done the job in the field. I'm not making any comparison. Obviously he has a long way to go before I compare him with Scott Rolen's glove. I'm saying he's committed only 2 errors in the field....not bad for a guy who sucks.

    It's as simple as this, you've written him off, I haven't. I think the Reds made the right call in going with Frazier, you don't. In the meantime, the Reds had plenty of time to reverse their decision because Rolen didn't sign with anyone else....and still hasn't.
    Lets look at results then. Well take your view of fraziers D for arguments sake. Average. Doesn't give up runs doesn't save them. It's a zero sum game.

    Lets take rolens D. Saved runs. It's a positive gain.

    More relevant is hannahan. Above average. Not rolen level but above Frazier. Saves runs. And btw his career obp is just a tick below fraziers in his break out 2012 season.

    So lets take this to an October situation. Hiram borgos, John Maine, and an aging Dan haren will not be pitching. Frazier will have to take his undisciplined approach up against number 1 and 2 stud pitchers. All evidence points to him not being able to succeed save luck or a tremendous metamorphosis into a disciplined hitter. He's not going to give you much. It'll be a zero sum game unless luck rears its head. He won't be saving runs and most likely won't create them. At least a guy like rolen or now hannahan could make a run saving impact with the glove. That results in wins. Not zero sum defense and praying to god he gets lucky and parks one.

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    FanoftheGame34 (05-23-2013)

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    And to red brick. Sucks is your word to describe his D. My word was below average to average. Sucks is horrible. Below average is above horrible but not average. I never said he sucked. And I never wrote him off. I'd just like him to be used in positions like a platoon situation where his weaknesses aren't shown and his strengths are accentuated. Much like last year.

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Hanrahan is NOT the answer. Goodness...his numbers are overall much poorer than Frazier. He is a bit better at third but Frazier is making huge strides there. Remember even in the minors the Reds had him at several positions...they didn't exactly help him with consistent reps at one position. Hanrahan has little to no power. I'm amazed at how much regard you have for him over Frazier. Todd is not this team's problem. I like discussions but the whole Frazier is below average get Headley thing is beat to death. At least find a different target to discuss for a change.

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    Lets look at results then. Well take your view of fraziers D for arguments sake. Average. Doesn't give up runs doesn't save them. It's a zero sum game.

    Lets take rolens D. Saved runs. It's a positive gain.

    More relevant is hannahan. Above average. Not rolen level but above Frazier. Saves runs. And btw his career obp is just a tick below fraziers in his break out 2012 season.

    So lets take this to an October situation. Hiram borgos, John Maine, and an aging Dan haren will not be pitching. Frazier will have to take his undisciplined approach up against number 1 and 2 stud pitchers. All evidence points to him not being able to succeed save luck or a tremendous metamorphosis into a disciplined hitter. He's not going to give you much. It'll be a zero sum game unless luck rears its head. He won't be saving runs and most likely won't create them. At least a guy like rolen or now hannahan could make a run saving impact with the glove. That results in wins. Not zero sum defense and praying to god he gets lucky and parks one.
    So your belief is a banged, often injuried 38+ year old who can't ever be 100% again is better then Frazier going forward? WOW!!!!!!!

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Fan View Post
    So your belief is a banged, often injuried 38+ year old who can't ever be 100% again is better then Frazier going forward? WOW!!!!!!!
    Good argument. Well, good argument as far as no argument at all and sounding like a scorned lobotomy survivor goes. It's sounds like people are making real points based off of play. I don't think the real issue is that Rolen is the answer it's more relevant that Frazier just isn't. Also, a slight improvement to suck is just another level of suck. I thought there would be interesting debate here for people discuss their love for a team. Seems more like childish insult tactics when there is no real argument left to make. When better is available. Don't bank on the average you already have. Simplicity should be used in the play, the stats, and the arguments for the two. Simplicity should not be a standard for which you set your thinking to.

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by FanoftheGame34 View Post
    Good argument. Well, good argument as far as no argument at all and sounding like a scorned lobotomy survivor goes. It's sounds like people are making real points based off of play. I don't think the real issue is that Rolen is the answer it's more relevant that Frazier just isn't. Also, a slight improvement to suck is just another level of suck. I thought there would be interesting debate here for people discuss their love for a team. Seems more like childish insult tactics when there is no real argument left to make. When better is available. Don't bank on the average you already have. Simplicity should be used in the play, the stats, and the arguments for the two. Simplicity should not be a standard for which you set your thinking to.
    A) Fraziers numbers are far from "sucking"
    B) I believe the jest of this discussion was based on the idea it would be better now if the Reds had Rolen at third this season over Frazier
    C) The idea of replacing Frazier after not even two full seasons is near laughable given the numbers he has produced so far.

  12. #39
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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Hanrahan is NOT the answer. Goodness...his numbers are overall much poorer than Frazier. He is a bit better at third but Frazier is making huge strides there. Remember even in the minors the Reds had him at several positions...they didn't exactly help him with consistent reps at one position. Hanrahan has little to no power. I'm amazed at how much regard you have for him over Frazier. Todd is not this team's problem. I like discussions but the whole Frazier is below average get Headley thing is beat to death. At least find a different target to discuss for a change.
    Its the main one and needs best to death. Do I think hannahan is a major league starter? No way. Not at all. But he'd be a solid platoon partner with a guy who sorely struggles against tough right handed pitching. And it's just not Headley. How about young? Bautista can play third. Getting a left fielder makes the outfield a jumbled mess and leaves choo in center. It may cause more issues than it actually solves unless you dump players.

  13. #40
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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Fan View Post
    A) Fraziers numbers are far from "sucking"
    B) I believe the jest of this discussion was based on the idea it would be better now if the Reds had Rolen at third this season over Frazier
    C) The idea of replacing Frazier after not even two full seasons is near laughable given the numbers he has produced so far.
    Frazier is the worst starter the reds have not including left because that's a backup player ATM. Cozart at least brings gold glove D

  14. #41
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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Hanrahan is NOT the answer. Goodness...his numbers are overall much poorer than Frazier. He is a bit better at third but Frazier is making huge strides there. Remember even in the minors the Reds had him at several positions...they didn't exactly help him with consistent reps at one position. Hanrahan has little to no power. I'm amazed at how much regard you have for him over Frazier. Todd is not this team's problem. I like discussions but the whole Frazier is below average get Headley thing is beat to death. At least find a different target to discuss for a change.
    Frazier is you're weakest starter. Our should be starting left fielder atm is playing center, our best prospect who is currently heating up at AAA is a centerfielder with great range and speed and could bat second. All things this team needs. That leaves Frazier to be replaced unless you think you can find a four hole hitting shortstop. Frazier is a 27 year old prospect who played over his head one season. I just wish people would see that. He is no long term solution and probably needs to be part of a platoon now. People talk about him not being a FA until 2018. I doubt hell be in the league by then. If he is it'd be a great shock.

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    Frazier is you're weakest starter. Our should be starting left fielder atm is playing center, our best prospect who is currently heating up at AAA is a centerfielder with great range and speed and could bat second. All things this team needs. That leaves Frazier to be replaced unless you think you can find a four hole hitting shortstop. Frazier is a 27 year old prospect who played over his head one season. I just wish people would see that. He is no long term solution and probably needs to be part of a platoon now. People talk about him not being a FA until 2018. I doubt hell be in the league by then. If he is it'd be a great shock.
    It would shock me if he wasn't. In this "terrible" season his OPS is. 724 while struggling. That's averagish for a 3bman. And he's been in an obvious funk. He is a sophomore which means he faces the biggest adjustment year in a players career when thee league's pitchers and coaches were able to break his game down all winter and prepare a "book" on him. I am not worried. He'll end up between. 750 and. 800, field well and be a factor in winning. You have a bias against Frazier the reverse of that you claim for his supporters. I am not btw a huge Todd fan. I just look at what he brings more realistically than I believe you do.

    You are consistent. I will give you that. Almost every post you make includes some referwnce to Frazier being the weak link. After so many posts ranting at the same thing I'm ready to argue something else. Also...I don't say that with any animosity at all. Its more fun to debate and discuss differences of opinion. But by now your position and mine are both well known to Sun Deck. I enjoy crossing "swords" with you though.

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    Don Cameron (05-28-2013)

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    It would shock me if he wasn't. In this "terrible" season his OPS is. 724 while struggling. That's averagish for a 3bman. And he's been in an obvious funk. He is a sophomore which means he faces the biggest adjustment year in a players career when thee league's pitchers and coaches were able to break his game down all winter and prepare a "book" on him. I am not worried. He'll end up between. 750 and. 800, field well and be a factor in winning. You have a bias against Frazier the reverse of that you claim for his supporters. I am not btw a huge Todd fan. I just look at what he brings more realistically than I believe you do.

    You are consistent. I will give you that. Almost every post you make includes some referwnce to Frazier being the weak link. After so many posts ranting at the same thing I'm ready to argue something else. Also...I don't say that with any animosity at all. Its more fun to debate and discuss differences of opinion. But by now your position and mine are both well known to Sun Deck. I enjoy crossing "swords" with you though.

    I really see eye to eye with you on a lot of stuff. I don't think he is terrible. I see as below average to average. And honestly I think he offers a skillset that the reds already have in their lineup and that's a feast or famine player. I think fanof thegame34 made a good point in saying Frazier may be average but he isn't the kind of average we need. I'd like to see a guy who can work a pitcher and give a tough at bat and hit around .250 to .270. I think there are some reasonable veterans out there that can do that.

    I don't think he's horrible I see him as a decent trade chip because losing his D at third will not be a major loss unless you get a slug out there. The other feast or famine guys are much better on D at their positions than Frazier is at third. I hope we can agree on that. I also think by getting a third baseman, not just Headley, but any third baseman that could supply an offense and defensive dynamic the reds could use, this leaves the outfield way more open for options this year and next. It's just not an I'm picking on Todd thing. I know he does bring some good things to the table, but a lot of other players on the team bring the same skills and IMO are more important to the team or would be harder to replace defensively. (Bruce and cozart). That's why I'm saying move Todd.

    I also am well aware of sophomore slumps. But my overall assesment of him at the plate is a general undisciplined approach. That doesn't generally lead to vast improvements especially with being such an old, prospect wise, player. His skills are engrained. By the time he corrects that stuff he may start to decline unlike a Bruce who corrected such things in his early 20s. If I saw Todd giving a more disciplined at bat and honestly having a more consistent approach, I'd say stick with him. I know I took a ton of crap from my friends saying to stuck with ludwick last year because I saw that his swing was made for great American and knew he would go off playing there.

    But my desire to get a third baseman is not just because I don't see Frazier being some late blooming phenom but because I see it as a way to give the reds options in the outfield. If they can get someone at third they can trade for a left fielder, wait for ludwick, move choo to left and use billy if comes on strong or trade for a centerfielder too. It's not all i think Frazier is a bum and he needs to go. I really think he'd do quite well in a platoon where hannahan plays against tough righties.
    Last edited by Old school 1983; 05-23-2013 at 10:31 PM.

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    Frazier is the worst starter the reds have not including left because that's a backup player ATM. Cozart at least brings gold glove D
    Problem with your view...numbers don't support it.

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    Old school 1983 (05-24-2013)

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    Re: Response to Rolen over Frazier

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    Frazier is you're weakest starter. Our should be starting left fielder atm is playing center, our best prospect who is currently heating up at AAA is a centerfielder with great range and speed and could bat second. All things this team needs. That leaves Frazier to be replaced unless you think you can find a four hole hitting shortstop. Frazier is a 27 year old prospect who played over his head one season. I just wish people would see that. He is no long term solution and probably needs to be part of a platoon now. People talk about him not being a FA until 2018. I doubt hell be in the league by then. If he is it'd be a great shock.
    I'm not saying you're right or saying that you're wrong, but doesn't Frazier at least deserve a full year at 3B before we say "No, he's not the answer" or "Yes, he is"?

    Right now he's #3 in the NL in fielding percentage at 3B, only has 2 E's. Baseball Reference shows him as being worth 4 runs above average defensively (using Total Zone Total Fielding Runs Above Avg/projected at 14 for the season) or 3 runs above average (using Defensive Runs Saved from Baseball Info Sources/projected at 10 for the season). Along those same lines, Rolen provided 3 in 2010, 2 in 2011, 2 in 2012 or BIS of 10 in 2010, 10 in 2011, and 0 in 2012.

    I just feel like the knee jerk reaction to replace Frazier or move him to LF or whatever is what the old regime would do...give him this season and almost 2 full ML seasons' worth of data before we pass full judgement on him.


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