Cardinals (Molina) crying again

[757690]

As a person who thinks Molina is the most overrated player ever among Cardinal fans, attributing his improvement to PEDs is just plain hating. For one, is there even any evidence of PEDs making a player's offensive output improve the way Molina's has? All of the players who've ever been caught taking PED's, not a single one of them had a Molina type improvement in production. Not ONE. People like Bonds and McGwire always had power. Show me a PEDs user who went from Molina 2008 to Molina 2011. I have yet to see evidence that PEDs work that way.

But yes, he's definitely overrated and could PROBABLY get into the Hall the same way Ozzie Smith did.

Brady Anderson and Steve Finley just off the top of my head. Granted, they were never caught, but then again, neither were Bonds or McGwire.

Give me ten minutes and I can get a much longer list.

[Strike3Called]

The fools were the ones defending McGwire and still do today. He embarrassed himself, the Cardinals, and all of baseball. But he is still a hero God to Cardinal fans.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...-still-my-hero

Seriously?? You'd actually make a comment that he's a hero to Cardinal 'fans' because one writer (presumably a Cardinals fan) wrote an article? You serious? An article that doesn't even have a single comment in the comments section that suggests other Cardinal Fans agree with it?

OK well, Im a Cardinal fan and I don't like apple pie. Now you can say that Cardinals fans don't like apple pie.

[Strike3Called]

Brady Anderson and Steve Finley just off the top of my head. Granted, they were never caught, but then again, neither were Bonds or McGwire.

Give me ten minutes and I can get a much longer list.

Wait wait...before I even look at the comparisons, did you just say they were never caught?? I want KNOWN PEDs users. It really does say something that right off the bat you're naming guys who aren't even known PEDs users.

And McGwire DID eventually admit to using PEDs.

[Strike3Called]

There are more than enough KNOWN PEDs users out there. (and we can even include Bonds) If you cant find any KNOWN user to have an improvement like Molina then there is no need to force it. If it doesn't exist, then it just doesn't exist.

[Hoosier Red]

Brady Anderson and Steve Finley just off the top of my head. Granted, they were never caught, but then again, neither were Bonds or McGwire.

Give me ten minutes and I can get a much longer list.

Bret Boone and Luis Gonzalez too.

However I don't think it's kosher to spread that innuendo without something stronger than a significant upgrade in performance.

[757690]

There are more than enough KNOWN PEDs users out there. (and we can even include Bonds) If you cant find any KNOWN user to have an improvement like Molina then there is no need to force it. If it doesn't exist, then it just doesn't exist.

Actually, there are very few that were caught. And McGwire is the only player I know of, who wasn't caught who admitted to using PED's.

I have no idea how you define a what a "known PED user" is, so I really can't move this discussion forward.

[jojo]

As a person who thinks Molina is the most overrated player ever among Cardinal fans, attributing his improvement to PEDs is just plain hating. For one, is there even any evidence of PEDs making a player's offensive output improve the way Molina's has? All of the players who've ever been caught taking PED's, not a single one of them had a Molina type improvement in production. Not ONE. People like Bonds and McGwire always had power. Show me a PEDs user who went from Molina 2008 to Molina 2011. I have yet to see evidence that PEDs work that way.

But yes, he's definitely overrated and could PROBABLY get into the Hall the same way Ozzie Smith did.

I'd probably be more worried about tatoo-contracted hepatitus cutting his career short than PEDs tarnishing his legacy. But the notion that Molina who turns 31 next month is going to keep getting better seems to fly in the face of normal.

[Strike3Called]

Bret Boone and Luis Gonzalez too.

However I don't think it's kosher to spread that innuendo without something stronger than a significant upgrade in performance.

Exactly. If you cant make the argument using KNOWN PEDs users, as many of them as they are, then you cant make the argument.

And already Steven Finley wouldn't qualify anyway. He was putting up 113 and 121 OPS+'s his 3rd and 4th year in the league. His lone 'odd' year was a 136 OPS+ at age 31, but after that year he returned to his normal OPS+ trends. That's not Molina, not even close. I haven't even looked up Anderson yet smh.

[Strike3Called]

Actually, there are very few that were caught. And McGwire is the only player I know of, who wasn't caught who admitted to using PED's.

I have no idea how you define a what a "known PED user" is, so I really can't move this discussion forward.

First you say there are very few who were caught but then say you have no idea what a known PED user is? If that's some kind of hint that I made a spelling or grammar mistake then get over it because you know what im talking about. I mean someone who been caught using PEDs, be it by failing a drug test or admitting to it.

And Jojo Ive already said he's not likely to keep getting better. I think he's overrated...no chance for the Hall. But I'd just like to see if people have any proof that his improvement is because of PEDs. (and of course Im talking to the people who made that statement)

[757690]

Exactly. If you cant make the argument using KNOWN PEDs users, as many of them as they are, then you cant make the argument.

And already Steven Finley wouldn't qualify anyway. He was putting up 113 and 121 OPS+'s his 3rd and 4th year in the league. His lone 'odd' year was a 136 OPS+ at age 31, but after that year he returned to his normal OPS+ trends. That's not Molina, not even close. I haven't even looked up Anderson yet smh.

If you can tell me exactly what a "known PED user" is, I can continue this discussion. Until then, it's meaningless.

Btw, OPS+ is a terrible way to determine who was using PED's since it compares players to others playing at the same time. So if a player is playing when there are many PED users, his OPS+ will look normal, if he too is a user.

Finley went from single digit HR's for around five seasons, to hitting double digit HR's a year at around the same age Yadi did the same. Very similar paths, HR wise.

[Don Cameron]

The fools were the ones defending McGwire and still do today. He embarrassed himself, the Cardinals, and all of baseball. But he is still a hero God to Cardinal fans.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...-still-my-hero

McGwire to St. Louis fan equals Pete Rose to Cincinnati fans--although, I always got the feeling that McGwire actually was humbled and sincere by his admission, where with Rose I always felt that the five year high schooler thought he could outsmart and outwit everyone out there.

Again--many people link those that had close connections to PED users or suppliers as users themselves... Rose's two closest buddies in his final playing days were Paul Janszen and Tommy G. Both convicted of illegal steroid sales. But then again, Pete has signed many baseballs that say he did not use steroids, so it must be true.

Don Cameron
The Man, the Myth, The Legend

[CardsFanBob]

The fools were the ones defending McGwire and still do today. He embarrassed himself, the Cardinals, and all of baseball. But he is still a hero God to Cardinal fans.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...-still-my-hero

Bleacher report is hardly a legitimate source. It's a fanboy site.

But sure. There are still plenty of people here who like Mark. Hell, I like Mark. But I know he was a cheat. I've taken down all of my Home Run chase collectables because I know it was all crap. Still, some fans won't care. Aren't there people in Cinci who still love Pete Rose? I know for a fact that Barry Bonds is still revered in San Fran. That's how fans are... fanatical.

As a person who thinks Molina is the most overrated player ever among Cardinal fans, attributing his improvement to PEDs is just plain hating. For one, is there even any evidence of PEDs making a player's offensive output improve the way Molina's has? All of the players who've ever been caught taking PED's, not a single one of them had a Molina type improvement in production. Not ONE. People like Bonds and McGwire always had power. Show me a PEDs user who went from Molina 2008 to Molina 2011. I have yet to see evidence that PEDs work that way.

But yes, he's definitely overrated and could PROBABLY get into the Hall the same way Ozzie Smith did.

May I ask: How is Molina so overrated?

[CardsFanBob]

I'd probably be more worried about tatoo-contracted hepatitus cutting his career short than PEDs tarnishing his legacy. But the notion that Molina who turns 31 next month is going to keep getting better seems to fly in the face of normal.

Not sure if he'll continue to get better, but based upon how his brothers played their careers out, I would suggest he could keep this pace of offensive production well into his late 30's.

[Strike3Called]

If you can tell me exactly what a "known PED user" is, I can continue this discussion. Until then, it's meaningless.

Btw, OPS+ is a terrible way to determine who was using PED's since it compares players to others playing at the same time. So if a player is playing when there are many PED users, his OPS+ will look normal, if he too is a user.

Finley went from single digit HR's for around five seasons, to hitting double digit HR's a year at around the same age Yadi did the same. Very similar paths, HR wise.

Since you are using the term PED user, I take it you now understand what is meant by known PED user

Obviously you're right about OPS+ but the problem lies with the statement 'if a player is playing when their are many PED users...." That would assume that PEDs would have the same affect on all the players who are using them. Player A could be taking PEDs and be playing like Steve Finley. Player B could be using PEDs and playing like Tony Womac.

If HR increase is going to be used to determine PED use, then again, why isn't Molina hitting 25-35 HRs like Finley? You say Molina and Finley both started hitting double digit HRs but that statement is misleading because Finley hit a LOT more.

All Im saying is the results of PEDs use are inconclusive. There is no way to tell what affects they have. Im not saying Molina is using them, and im not saying he's not. Im only questioning why would his offensive improvement indicate PED use? If we could take the guys who got caught and see that they had similar improvements, that would be what we call evidence.

[RedFanAlways1966]

Im only questioning why would his offensive improvement indicate PED use? If we could take the guys who got caught and see that they had similar improvements, that would be what we call evidence.

I have no idea and I think he is a helluva of a player. However...

He plays the most physically demanding/depleting position in baseball. He has started 1,068 games as a catcher in MLB. That takes a toll on the body. BIG TIME. To increase OPS by 100+ points in years 8, 9 and 10 as a full time catcher definitely smells funny. Almost comparable to the sudden surge of Melky Cabrerra at the plate. Except Cabrerra is not playing the most physically demanding position.