Turn Off Ads?
Page 12 of 16 FirstFirst ... 28910111213141516 LastLast
Results 166 to 180 of 232

Thread: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

  1. #166
    Member 757690's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Dayton
    Posts
    10,684

    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike3Called View Post
    As a person who thinks Molina is the most overrated player ever among Cardinal fans, attributing his improvement to PEDs is just plain hating. For one, is there even any evidence of PEDs making a player's offensive output improve the way Molina's has? All of the players who've ever been caught taking PED's, not a single one of them had a Molina type improvement in production. Not ONE. People like Bonds and McGwire always had power. Show me a PEDs user who went from Molina 2008 to Molina 2011. I have yet to see evidence that PEDs work that way.

    But yes, he's definitely overrated and could PROBABLY get into the Hall the same way Ozzie Smith did.
    Brady Anderson and Steve Finley just off the top of my head. Granted, they were never caught, but then again, neither were Bonds or McGwire.

    Give me ten minutes and I can get a much longer list.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #167
    Member Strike3Called's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Virginia Beach VA
    Posts
    72

    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by RBA View Post
    The fools were the ones defending McGwire and still do today. He embarrassed himself, the Cardinals, and all of baseball. But he is still a hero God to Cardinal fans.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...-still-my-hero
    Seriously?? You'd actually make a comment that he's a hero to Cardinal 'fans' because one writer (presumably a Cardinals fan) wrote an article? You serious? An article that doesn't even have a single comment in the comments section that suggests other Cardinal Fans agree with it?

    OK well, Im a Cardinal fan and I don't like apple pie. Now you can say that Cardinals fans don't like apple pie.

  4. Likes:

    IntheCards (07-10-2013)

  5. #168
    Member Strike3Called's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Virginia Beach VA
    Posts
    72

    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Brady Anderson and Steve Finley just off the top of my head. Granted, they were never caught, but then again, neither were Bonds or McGwire.

    Give me ten minutes and I can get a much longer list.
    Wait wait...before I even look at the comparisons, did you just say they were never caught?? I want KNOWN PEDs users. It really does say something that right off the bat you're naming guys who aren't even known PEDs users.

    And McGwire DID eventually admit to using PEDs.

  6. Likes:

    IntheCards (07-10-2013)

  7. #169
    Member Strike3Called's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Virginia Beach VA
    Posts
    72

    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    There are more than enough KNOWN PEDs users out there. (and we can even include Bonds) If you cant find any KNOWN user to have an improvement like Molina then there is no need to force it. If it doesn't exist, then it just doesn't exist.

  8. Likes:

    IntheCards (07-10-2013)

  9. #170
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    7,196

    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Brady Anderson and Steve Finley just off the top of my head. Granted, they were never caught, but then again, neither were Bonds or McGwire.

    Give me ten minutes and I can get a much longer list.
    Bret Boone and Luis Gonzalez too.

    However I don't think it's kosher to spread that innuendo without something stronger than a significant upgrade in performance.
    When people say that I donít know what Iím talking about when it comes to sports or writing, I think: Man, you should see me in the rest of my life.
    ---Joe Posnanski

  10. #171
    Member 757690's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Dayton
    Posts
    10,684

    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike3Called View Post
    There are more than enough KNOWN PEDs users out there. (and we can even include Bonds) If you cant find any KNOWN user to have an improvement like Molina then there is no need to force it. If it doesn't exist, then it just doesn't exist.
    Actually, there are very few that were caught. And McGwire is the only player I know of, who wasn't caught who admitted to using PED's.

    I have no idea how you define a what a "known PED user" is, so I really can't move this discussion forward.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  11. #172
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    18,991

    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike3Called View Post
    As a person who thinks Molina is the most overrated player ever among Cardinal fans, attributing his improvement to PEDs is just plain hating. For one, is there even any evidence of PEDs making a player's offensive output improve the way Molina's has? All of the players who've ever been caught taking PED's, not a single one of them had a Molina type improvement in production. Not ONE. People like Bonds and McGwire always had power. Show me a PEDs user who went from Molina 2008 to Molina 2011. I have yet to see evidence that PEDs work that way.

    But yes, he's definitely overrated and could PROBABLY get into the Hall the same way Ozzie Smith did.
    I'd probably be more worried about tatoo-contracted hepatitus cutting his career short than PEDs tarnishing his legacy. But the notion that Molina who turns 31 next month is going to keep getting better seems to fly in the face of normal.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  12. #173
    Member Strike3Called's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Virginia Beach VA
    Posts
    72

    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    Bret Boone and Luis Gonzalez too.

    However I don't think it's kosher to spread that innuendo without something stronger than a significant upgrade in performance.
    Exactly. If you cant make the argument using KNOWN PEDs users, as many of them as they are, then you cant make the argument.

    And already Steven Finley wouldn't qualify anyway. He was putting up 113 and 121 OPS+'s his 3rd and 4th year in the league. His lone 'odd' year was a 136 OPS+ at age 31, but after that year he returned to his normal OPS+ trends. That's not Molina, not even close. I haven't even looked up Anderson yet smh.

  13. Likes:

    IntheCards (07-10-2013)

  14. #174
    Member Strike3Called's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Virginia Beach VA
    Posts
    72

    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Actually, there are very few that were caught. And McGwire is the only player I know of, who wasn't caught who admitted to using PED's.

    I have no idea how you define a what a "known PED user" is, so I really can't move this discussion forward.

    First you say there are very few who were caught but then say you have no idea what a known PED user is? If that's some kind of hint that I made a spelling or grammar mistake then get over it because you know what im talking about. I mean someone who been caught using PEDs, be it by failing a drug test or admitting to it.

    And Jojo Ive already said he's not likely to keep getting better. I think he's overrated...no chance for the Hall. But I'd just like to see if people have any proof that his improvement is because of PEDs. (and of course Im talking to the people who made that statement)
    Last edited by Strike3Called; 06-07-2013 at 02:12 PM.

  15. Likes:

    IntheCards (07-10-2013)

  16. #175
    Member 757690's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Dayton
    Posts
    10,684

    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike3Called View Post
    Exactly. If you cant make the argument using KNOWN PEDs users, as many of them as they are, then you cant make the argument.

    And already Steven Finley wouldn't qualify anyway. He was putting up 113 and 121 OPS+'s his 3rd and 4th year in the league. His lone 'odd' year was a 136 OPS+ at age 31, but after that year he returned to his normal OPS+ trends. That's not Molina, not even close. I haven't even looked up Anderson yet smh.
    If you can tell me exactly what a "known PED user" is, I can continue this discussion. Until then, it's meaningless.

    Btw, OPS+ is a terrible way to determine who was using PED's since it compares players to others playing at the same time. So if a player is playing when there are many PED users, his OPS+ will look normal, if he too is a user.

    Finley went from single digit HR's for around five seasons, to hitting double digit HR's a year at around the same age Yadi did the same. Very similar paths, HR wise.
    Last edited by 757690; 06-07-2013 at 02:18 PM.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  17. #176
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Cincinnati, Oh
    Posts
    73

    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by RBA View Post
    The fools were the ones defending McGwire and still do today. He embarrassed himself, the Cardinals, and all of baseball. But he is still a hero God to Cardinal fans.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...-still-my-hero
    McGwire to St. Louis fan equals Pete Rose to Cincinnati fans--although, I always got the feeling that McGwire actually was humbled and sincere by his admission, where with Rose I always felt that the five year high schooler thought he could outsmart and outwit everyone out there.

    Again--many people link those that had close connections to PED users or suppliers as users themselves... Rose's two closest buddies in his final playing days were Paul Janszen and Tommy G. Both convicted of illegal steroid sales. But then again, Pete has signed many baseballs that say he did not use steroids, so it must be true.

    Don Cameron
    The Man, the Myth, The Legend

  18. #177
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    152

    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by RBA View Post
    The fools were the ones defending McGwire and still do today. He embarrassed himself, the Cardinals, and all of baseball. But he is still a hero God to Cardinal fans.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...-still-my-hero
    Bleacher report is hardly a legitimate source. It's a fanboy site.

    But sure. There are still plenty of people here who like Mark. Hell, I like Mark. But I know he was a cheat. I've taken down all of my Home Run chase collectables because I know it was all crap. Still, some fans won't care. Aren't there people in Cinci who still love Pete Rose? I know for a fact that Barry Bonds is still revered in San Fran. That's how fans are... fanatical.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike3Called View Post
    As a person who thinks Molina is the most overrated player ever among Cardinal fans, attributing his improvement to PEDs is just plain hating. For one, is there even any evidence of PEDs making a player's offensive output improve the way Molina's has? All of the players who've ever been caught taking PED's, not a single one of them had a Molina type improvement in production. Not ONE. People like Bonds and McGwire always had power. Show me a PEDs user who went from Molina 2008 to Molina 2011. I have yet to see evidence that PEDs work that way.

    But yes, he's definitely overrated and could PROBABLY get into the Hall the same way Ozzie Smith did.
    May I ask: How is Molina so overrated?

  19. #178
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    152

    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I'd probably be more worried about tatoo-contracted hepatitus cutting his career short than PEDs tarnishing his legacy. But the notion that Molina who turns 31 next month is going to keep getting better seems to fly in the face of normal.
    Not sure if he'll continue to get better, but based upon how his brothers played their careers out, I would suggest he could keep this pace of offensive production well into his late 30's.

  20. #179
    Member Strike3Called's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Virginia Beach VA
    Posts
    72

    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    If you can tell me exactly what a "known PED user" is, I can continue this discussion. Until then, it's meaningless.

    Btw, OPS+ is a terrible way to determine who was using PED's since it compares players to others playing at the same time. So if a player is playing when there are many PED users, his OPS+ will look normal, if he too is a user.

    Finley went from single digit HR's for around five seasons, to hitting double digit HR's a year at around the same age Yadi did the same. Very similar paths, HR wise.
    Since you are using the term PED user, I take it you now understand what is meant by known PED user

    Obviously you're right about OPS+ but the problem lies with the statement 'if a player is playing when their are many PED users...." That would assume that PEDs would have the same affect on all the players who are using them. Player A could be taking PEDs and be playing like Steve Finley. Player B could be using PEDs and playing like Tony Womac.

    If HR increase is going to be used to determine PED use, then again, why isn't Molina hitting 25-35 HRs like Finley? You say Molina and Finley both started hitting double digit HRs but that statement is misleading because Finley hit a LOT more.

    All Im saying is the results of PEDs use are inconclusive. There is no way to tell what affects they have. Im not saying Molina is using them, and im not saying he's not. Im only questioning why would his offensive improvement indicate PED use? If we could take the guys who got caught and see that they had similar improvements, that would be what we call evidence.

  21. Likes:

    IntheCards (07-10-2013)

  22. #180
    For a Level Playing Field RedFanAlways1966's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Oakwood, OH
    Posts
    11,748

    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike3Called View Post
    Im only questioning why would his offensive improvement indicate PED use? If we could take the guys who got caught and see that they had similar improvements, that would be what we call evidence.
    I have no idea and I think he is a helluva of a player. However...

    He plays the most physically demanding/depleting position in baseball. He has started 1,068 games as a catcher in MLB. That takes a toll on the body. BIG TIME. To increase OPS by 100+ points in years 8, 9 and 10 as a full time catcher definitely smells funny. Almost comparable to the sudden surge of Melky Cabrerra at the plate. Except Cabrerra is not playing the most physically demanding position.
    Small market fan... always hoping, but never expecting.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25