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Thread: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

  1. #121
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Cameron View Post
    Yes, as I said, he is half way there... ( by your own grey ink quote). Of the 10 catchers listed Molina is FAR superior defensively. And yes, I grew up a Cincinnatian, but Pudge Rodrigiez was the greatest. Bench had two monster years. In some of the 1970's offensively Simmons, Fisk, and Carter were better. For the majority of his career no catcher performed better offensively and defensively than Irod.
    Yikes....
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner


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  3. #122
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Cameron View Post
    You have to be kidding me with the WAR stat, right? Seriously. The only people that give credit, could NOT have actually played the game beyond high school. So, with WAR you actually believe, going by the 1976 Reds, that if the Reds lost Joe Morgan opening day and they are forced to play Doug Flynn 162, that the Reds still win 93 games without their MVP and three hitter? Or that if Rose got hurt that Flynn could replace Rose and the Reds still win 95 games or better yet, Perez gets hurt and Mike Lum can lead the Reds to almost 100 wins because Perez had a 2.6 WAR?

    Dude, if you buy that, then you probably believe that moneyball and the A's was all about OBP and not running out Hudson, Mulder and Zito.

    Don Cameron
    A man who enjoys a close shave
    But if the Reds don't have Johnny Bench and they have Bill Plummer instead then maybe they don't sweep the Yankees and then Bench doesn't win the WS MVP award and then the BRM doesn't go down as one of the greatest teams of all time. Then there is no statue of him outside GABP.

    It hasta make ya think doesn't it?
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  4. #123
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    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Which is why WAR is an absolutely worthless stat.

  5. #124
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    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Have "we" gotten the attention "we" desire yet?

    Google "greatest catchers of all time". Of course a troll already knows this. I might lean towards ignorance.


    RedFanAlways1966
    Calling out Trolls/Ignorance

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    foxfire123 (06-06-2013),George Anderson (06-06-2013)

  7. #125
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    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by CARDINALred View Post
    He wasn't tossed for arguing a call, he was tossed because he threw his helmet on the ground in frustration after being robbed by a great play.

    And Phillips said what he said because he likes attention; that's really all there is to that.
    Phillips said what every major league baseball player, coach, manager, GM, media person, and fan that does not play for the Cardinals, work for the Cardinals, cover the Cardinals or support the Cardinals..........knows to be true. He just had the guts to say out loud what 99% of the league knows about the Cardinals, that they are whiny babies.

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    foxfire123 (06-06-2013)

  9. #126
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    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    Phillips said what every major league baseball player, coach, manager, GM, media person, and fan that does not play for the Cardinals, work for the Cardinals, cover the Cardinals or support the Cardinals..........knows to be true. He just had the guts to say out loud what 99% of the league knows about the Cardinals, that they are whiny babies.
    That's an insult to whiny babies.

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    foxfire123 (06-06-2013),Vottomatic (06-06-2013)

  11. #127
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    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Ok. That makes sense. I am a troll because I offer an educated and informed opinion that Ivan Rodriguez was better than Bench and I get accused of trolling. Bench was a great catcher, but as a former Division 1 catcher that saw BOTH of them play, I would take IRod, and I have stats that back it up.

    I do believe Molina has a shot at the Hall of Fame. I know, Oh my God... how can someone in Cincinnati not loathe Molina? The dude plays his butt off. His game is focused on one thing, and that is winning. I would take Molina in a heartbeat over ANY current catcher to be on my team. He is coming into his own as an offensive asset. But he does need a few more stat years to get there.

    As far as Munson goes.... his 1976 year was a great year. And if you really believe Bench's campaign in 1976 compared nearly equal to Munson, then... well, I question a person,'s ability to really offer an honest assessment of talent.

    Don Cameron
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  12. #128
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    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Cameron View Post
    Ok. That makes sense. I am a troll because I offer an educated and informed opinion that Ivan Rodriguez was better than Bench and I get accused of trolling. Bench was a great catcher, but as a former Division 1 catcher that saw BOTH of them play, I would take IRod, and I have stats that back it up.

    I do believe Molina has a shot at the Hall of Fame. I know, Oh my God... how can someone in Cincinnati not loathe Molina? The dude plays his butt off. His game is focused on one thing, and that is winning. I would take Molina in a heartbeat over ANY current catcher to be on my team. He is coming into his own as an offensive asset. But he does need a few more stat years to get there.

    As far as Munson goes.... his 1976 year was a great year. And if you really believe Bench's campaign in 1976 compared nearly equal to Munson, then... well, I question a person,'s ability to really offer an honest assessment of talent.

    Don Cameron
    A true champion


    In an era of inflated hitting stats..... IR did not stand out as much as you seem to think.

    Bench's on the other hand....pretty much did. 1970-72-73-74-75...especially.

    Tony Cloninger
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  14. #129
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Cameron View Post
    Ok. That makes sense. I am a troll because I offer an educated and informed opinion that Ivan Rodriguez was better than Bench and I get accused of trolling. Bench was a great catcher, but as a former Division 1 catcher that saw BOTH of them play, I would take IRod, and I have stats that back it up.

    I do believe Molina has a shot at the Hall of Fame. I know, Oh my God... how can someone in Cincinnati not loathe Molina? The dude plays his butt off. His game is focused on one thing, and that is winning. I would take Molina in a heartbeat over ANY current catcher to be on my team. He is coming into his own as an offensive asset. But he does need a few more stat years to get there.

    As far as Munson goes.... his 1976 year was a great year. And if you really believe Bench's campaign in 1976 compared nearly equal to Munson, then... well, I question a person,'s ability to really offer an honest assessment of talent.

    Don Cameron
    A true champion
    I tend to question any statistical argument you make on the basis of your contribution to this thread but really, evoking Molina and Bench as possible equivalencies suggests serious flaws in player assessment. One can quibble about the differences in defensive abilities between Bench and Pudge as both were superb. But if Pudge's defensive tool was better, the difference wasn't dramatic. Bench however was a better offensive player and that's before one even contemplates normalizing for era and environment which makes the differences between the two even greater.
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  16. #130
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    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger View Post
    In an era of inflated hitting stats..... IR did not stand out as much as you seem to think.

    Bench's on the other hand....pretty much did. 1970-72-73-74-75...especially.

    Tony Cloninger
    I'm just her for the free beer and sandwiches
    When you compare Irod's stats to everyone else in the league at that time, he's basically was right around league average. Everyone was putting up crazy numbers.

    When you compare Bench's stats to everyone else's in the league at that time, he clearly was elite.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769023

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    RBA (06-06-2013)

  18. #131
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    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Is Brian McCann HOF bound?

  19. #132
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Is Brian McCann HOF bound?
    McCann doesn't have 5 consecutive gold gloves. McCann doesn't have 2 rings. McCann doesn't have a game winning HR in game 7 of an LCS. McCann hasn't been the most feared arm behind the plate since 2005.

    Offense comes second to defense for catchers. That's why McCann isn't on a HOF track. McCann has also been injury prone the last couple years and he really started trending down last year with a .230 average, meanwhile Molina is trending up
    Last edited by Salukifan2; 06-06-2013 at 11:58 PM.

  20. #133
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    McCann doesn't have 5 consecutive gold gloves. McCann doesn't have 2 rings. McCann doesn't have a game winning HR in game 7 of an LCS. McCann hasn't been the most feared arm behind the plate since 2005.

    Offense comes second to defense for catchers. That's why McCann isn't on a HOF track. McCann has also been injury prone the last couple years and he really started trending down last year with a .230 average, meanwhile Molina is trending up
    2 Rings and a game winning HR in a LCS will amount to little in HOF voting.

    If Molina retired tomorrow he wouldn't make it past the first ballot. He is a very good catcher obviously but way to many people, Reds fans included want to enshrine their favorites as immortal greats when they just don't stack up.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  21. #134
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    2 Rings and a game winning HR in a LCS will amount to little in HOF voting.

    If Molina retired tomorrow he wouldn't make it past the first ballot. He is a very good catcher obviously but way to many people, Reds fans included want to enshrine their favorites as immortal greats when they just don't stack up.
    This is true but I'm not trying to enshrine him as an immortal great. There are plenty if non-immortal greats in the HOF.

    But I disagree that the rings and clutch post season play don't mean much, they build a players legend. And if he can get a third it will be huge for him because it will be "yadi's" team without AP or LaRussa

  22. #135
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    Re: Cardinals (Molina) crying again

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    This is true but I'm not trying to enshrine him as an immortal great. There are plenty if non-immortal greats in the HOF.

    But I disagree that the rings and clutch post season play don't mean much, they build a players legend. And if he can get a third it will be huge for him because it will be "yadi's" team without AP or LaRussa
    He's finished 20th, 21st and 4th (last year) in the MVP vote. He's a good player but not a HOF player, John Roseboro has 3 rings and caught legendary HOF pitchers and he's not in.

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