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Thread: A novel concept...

  1. #76
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: A novel concept...

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    But what do you gain? Great, you got me out of that mess, now what? "Winning the battle but losing the war" odds greatly increase if that is a common occurrence. That might be a "must game" mentality, but we are talking about day to day usage patterns here.
    I suppose from this perspective we once again come down to the playoffs vs. regular season issue that always comes up with Dusty discussions.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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  3. #77
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    Re: A novel concept...

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    But what do you gain? Great, you got me out of that mess, now what? "Winning the battle but losing the war" odds greatly increase if that is a common occurrence. That might be a "must game" mentality, but we are talking about day to day usage patterns here.
    I'd rather have Chapman dealing with the mess than Parra. I'd rather have Chapman dealing with the mess and Marshall getting the 3-run-lead "save." I like giving decent but not shutdown guys three outs to get through an inning without giving up a run. I think baseball needs a fireman more than a closer ... then something about curves and long slow kisses, but I forget the rest.

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    RedEye (06-04-2013), Vottomatic (06-05-2013)

  5. #78
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    Re: A novel concept...

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    I suppose from this perspective we once again come down to the playoffs vs. regular season issue that always comes up with Dusty discussions.
    Not so much with Bob Boone discussions though

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  7. #79
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    Re: A novel concept...

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Not so much with Bob Boone discussions though
    Bob Boone discussions? Oh, snap!
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  8. #80
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    Re: A novel concept...

    It would be nice to have someone like Chapman in the top of the seventh tonight....
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  9. #81
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    Re: A novel concept...

    ...and LeCure faces the 1st-4th batters in the 8th. Great timing of this article.

  10. #82
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    Re: A novel concept...

    Quote Originally Posted by DocRed View Post
    ...and LeCure faces the 1st-4th batters in the 8th. Great timing of this article.
    And allows an extremely tough lefty to extend the inning before giving up a 2 run bomb to their best hitter.

    If that's not the being on the line, I don't know what is.

    Lecure got squeezed a bit and has been quite good this season, but don't you want to have your best reliever ready to go in a 1 run game facing the top of the lineup?
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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  12. #83
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    Re: A novel concept...

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    That's fair.

    But at the same time, in the grand scheme of things, it's probably not material enough to get whipped up about.
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

  13. #84
    Member mdccclxix's Avatar
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    Re: A novel concept...

    Within the arguments of the article, I think it's far more fair to ask for a 4 out save occasionally than asking to move the checkers all over the board on a nightly basis. The context for every team is different. For our Reds, though, the context has been:

    1) Strong closer for 9th only
    2) Strikeout/groundballer for 8th
    3) 6th or 7th inning matchup du jour

    Really, it's hard to argue that if you need to fill out 6 or 7 guys in a bullpen that your bottom 3 or 4 will be world beaters. If they are, great. Last year was a remarkable success, for example. Ondrusek, Arredondo, Simon and Lecure were just perfect. They were matched up well and filled their roles really well.

    If you were looking to give credit to the Reds, instead of reinventing the wheel, you could also notice that they acquired the best reliever in baseball from the Cubs for the all important 8th inning and often only used him against LHH. Then they had a tough RHP for the 8th as well.

    So, you can't really argue with the Reds results when their bullpen is deep enough. And from experience, we can also recall that the Reds bullpen was putrid before Cordero structured it as the top-down, shut-down closer, allowing for the manager to utilize his other reliever's strengths for matchup and, let me not forget, duration.

    Finally, I've seen no mention of the fact that if the lead is lost in the 7th or 8th, it IS still possible to come back, especially on the road. And speaking of the road, do we want Simon closing a game out in Philly or St. Louis?

    It's not that high leverage situations aren't apparent or even dangerous with the current configuration, it's just that they are a season long challenge. Now, in the playoffs, would I like Chapman to pitch 7 outs? Was Lincecum a nightmare last year in game 5? YES.

  14. #85
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    Re: A novel concept...

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Chaos? Maybe I lack fundamental understanding of how things work, but don't managers quite often have several pitchers warming up to prepare for given situations that might arise? Why would it be so complicated to have your shutdown arm prepare earlier in the game, just in case? Does a closer have to warm up in a more specific way for save or non-save situations? I would think not...
    Several? No. Sometimes they have 2 pitchers warming because of lefty/rightys or a tie game. And I don't think it's complicated to have your closer warm up every night to start the 7th just in case... I just think it's a terrible idea.

  15. #86
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: A novel concept...

    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    I'd rather have Chapman dealing with the mess than Parra. I'd rather have Chapman dealing with the mess and Marshall getting the 3-run-lead "save." I like giving decent but not shutdown guys three outs to get through an inning without giving up a run. I think baseball needs a fireman more than a closer ... then something about curves and long slow kisses, but I forget the rest.
    Well, who wouldn't want Chapman over any of those mentioned, at any point in the game? But, obviously, someone else has to be used as a reliever at some point, and sometimes in a difficult situation. That is why I believe the real issue in bullpen management is depth, not pecking order. Give me a deep bullpen and I have more options available to me, maybe even some of those you are promoting.

    But most of the time, it is going to be very difficult to use your best reliever as the answer for "any time there is a rally." The funny thing is, the "fireman" approach only worked in an era where that guy was able to work multiple innings. And those guys were rare, elite relievers like Bruce Sutter, Goose Gossage, Rollie Fingers, Mike Marshall, Lee Smith, Sparky Lyle. But then starters went deeper, so your bullpens didn't require the depth that they do now, and so on and so on and so on.

    To be honest, I'm not sure that bringing in power arm after power arm after power arm that successful bullpens are doing now is anything I'd want to change. I am amazed at the heat guys are bringing out of the bullpen these days. For example, the Rockies bring in two lefties last night throwing 94-95. It's getting crazy.
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  16. #87
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    Re: A novel concept...

    So the general consensus is to keep Chapman as a one inning save opportunity guy?
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  17. #88
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    Re: A novel concept...

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    So the general consensus is to keep Chapman as a one inning save opportunity guy?
    Ideally he would be used with a bit more flexibility - if it's 4-1, Hoover pitches the ninth, a game like last night, Chapman goes two innings. But realistically it's not going to happen. No one has ever described Walt or Dusty as innovators. Except for Dusty inventing the high five, which is still the most inexplicable thing of all time.

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    *BaseClogger* (06-05-2013)

  19. #89
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    Re: A novel concept...

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    So the general consensus is to keep Chapman as a one inning save opportunity guy?
    No, I think he should be a starter.
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