Reds Mount Rushmore

[Norm Chortleton]

I'd love to see some numbers on talent pool from the 60s and 70s vs now. While there were fewer major league jobs then, I'm guessing there could have been more pro players then. It seems like there were minor league teams in every rinky dink town.

And everyone played baseball back then. Now kids start specializing as young as 10-12 with year-round travel teams, etc. Not to mention that very few American minorities play the game now.

[Hoosier Red]

That's the classic Bill James look at talent. He stated the worse the talent is in a league the more likely that "young" players would succeed (IE 19th century ball littered with teens compared to now)

Garsh, now I feel smart.

[RollyInRaleigh]

On the top teams? Absolutely. But look past a team that won it's division. You see a lot of Jim Hannon's and worse.

Another logical way to look at it is to compare the number of pitchers who are 20 years old and younger then as compared to now.

Now, you'll see it every once in a while. Back then I'd guess there was a pitcher per team younger than 21.
This means either there was vast quantity of 20 year olds better than the 20 year olds now, or there were more opportunities for 20 year old pitchers to come to the majors, learn and refine their stuff.

Sorry, but I saw some real good pitchers on most of those rosters. It was an expansion year so there was a couple of teams with bad staffs, but even those staffs were not horrible. The Yanks had Mel Stottlemeyer, Stan Bahnsen, and Fritz Peterson while the Phils had Grant Jackson, Rick Wise and Woodie Fryman. The Astros had Larry Dierker, Don Wilson, and Mike Griffin. The White Sox had Tommy John, Wilbur Wood and Joel Horlen. The Cardinals finished fourth with Bob Gibson, Steve Carlton, Nelson Briles, and Mike Torrez. The Dodgers finished fourth and had Don Sutton, Bill Singer, and Claude Osteen. I watched a lot of those guys pitch. They were very good.

[dougdirt]

Sorry, but I saw some real good pitchers on most of those rosters. It was an expansion year so there was a couple of teams with bad staffs, but even those staffs were not horrible. The Yanks had Mel Stottlemeyer, Stan Bahnsen, and Fritz Peterson while the Phils had Grant Jackson, Rick Wise and Woodie Fryman. The Astros had Larry Dierker, Don Wilson, and Mike Griffin. The White Sox had Tommy John, Wilbur Wood and Joel Horlen. The Cardinals finished fourth with Bob Gibson, Steve Carlton, Nelson Briles, and Mike Torrez. The Dodgers finished fourth and had Don Sutton, Bill Singer, and Claude Osteen. I watched a lot of those guys pitch. They were very good.

Homer Bailey would obliterate records if you sent him back in time right now to the 50's. He would easily be the best pitcher in the league (well, until his arm blew up from over usage because he hasn't been conditioned to throw as many innings). Homer Bailey of course is a guy many would have labeled as the Reds #4 starter coming into this season. Again, Bailey throws a 90 MPH slider. MLB average fastball the day I was born in 1984 was 87 MPH. Bailey throws a breaking ball faster than the average fastball was 30 years ago. Pitchers today are simply better. If pitchers of before grew up in this era, they would be better too. I don't know why people get all bent out of shape as if it were some slight against them. It isn't. That is just how athletics work.

[Always Red]

Homer Bailey would obliterate records if you sent him back in time right now to the 50's. He would easily be the best pitcher in the league (well, until his arm blew up from over usage because he hasn't been conditioned to throw as many innings). Homer Bailey of course is a guy many would have labeled as the Reds #4 starter coming into this season. Again, Bailey throws a 90 MPH slider. MLB average fastball the day I was born in 1984 was 87 MPH. Bailey throws a breaking ball faster than the average fastball was 30 years ago. Pitchers today are simply better. If pitchers of before grew up in this era, they would be better too. I don't know why people get all bent out of shape as if it were some slight against them. It isn't. That is just how athletics work.

Give Homer the same crappy Depression era diet that those guys ate growing up, and take away the advantage of all the travel teams he played for and just put him in a hard scrabble high school in dusty rural Texas where he's playing 25 games a year and you have an entirely different Homer, one that you can more fairly compare to the pitchers of the 50's.

I don't know why people can't see the difference and why folks think it is a slight against them and get all bent out of shape because they can't understand that.

That's just how athletics works.

[westofyou]

Yeah he'd be a regular Sid Finch when he faced those bumpkins who Doug never saw.

Thanks for straightening us out on this game... baseball right?

[Always Red]

Yeah he'd be a regular Sid Finch when he faced those bumpkins who Doug never saw.

Thanks for straightening us out on this game... baseball right?

Well, that's what they call it, but it does look different from era to era.

[dougdirt]

Give Homer the same crappy Depression era diet that those guys ate growing up, and take away the advantage of all the travel teams he played for and just put him in a hard scrabble high school in dusty rural Texas where he's playing 25 games a year and you have an entirely different Homer, one that you can more fairly compare to the pitchers of the 50's.

I don't know why people can't see the difference and why folks think it is a slight against them and get all bent out of shape because they can't understand that.

That's just how athletics works.

Absolutely. Homer Bailey growing up in another era wouldn't be nearly as good/hard throwing/as big as he is now.

[dougdirt]

Yeah he'd be a regular Sid Finch when he faced those bumpkins who Doug never saw.

Thanks for straightening us out on this game... baseball right?

You are probably right. I needed to see those guys to know that breaking balls faster than most of the leagues fastballs would probably be something they would adjust to.

[westofyou]

You are probably right. I needed to see those guys to know that breaking balls faster than most of the leagues fastballs would probably be something they would adjust to.

Talking in absolutes without evidence is boring to me so I will now bow out it is what I term as "barroom" talk essentially it's BS talk and nobody can prove anything.

Perhaps we should give the thread back to the OP and his idea of a Reds Mt Rushmore

[dougdirt]

Talking in absolutes without evidence is boring to me so I will now bow out if what term as "barroom" talk essential it's BS talk and nobody can prove anything.

Perhaps we should give the thread back to the OP and his idea if Reds Mt Rushmore

Evidence of what? That pitchers weren't throwing 90 MPH consistently in the 1950's-1970's? There is plenty of proof of that unless you believe that upon the invention of radar guns came two generations of pitchers who all of a sudden threw much, much softer than the ones before them.

[Big Klu]

I've always believed that great players would be great in any era.

[RollyInRaleigh]

Talking in absolutes without evidence is boring to me so I will now bow out it is what I term as "barroom" talk essentially it's BS talk and nobody can prove anything.

Perhaps we should give the thread back to the OP and his idea of a Reds Mt Rushmore

Me too. You hit the nail right on the head, WOY.

So should any of the players from yesteryear be considered for the Reds Mt. Rushmore since they were so inferior?

[RollyInRaleigh]

Yeah he'd be a regular Sid Finch when he faced those bumpkins who Doug never saw.

Thanks for straightening us out on this game... baseball right?

[powersackers]

It's Rose, Bench, Morgan and Larkin. Thats the concensus. Rushmore should feature household names and facial recognition with the stats, Reds championships and national recognition from writers and fans when you think of the Reds. These four have all that in spades.

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