Turn Off Ads?
Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 93

Thread: Uncle Part II: Stop the Madness in CF

  1. #61
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    13,488

    Re: Uncle Part II: Stop the Madness in CF

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    I thought we were discussing defense. I also think you are cherry picking Heisey's stats and ignoring his career norms.

    I don't think the proposal I made is ideal, but I do think it solves the CF defense issue on a temporary basis. If and when Ludwivk returns on a full basis, I think we can return to the offense/defense trade off that the team had on opening day.
    As I've pointed out numerous times, RedEye, Heisey has only played three plus years in the major leagues. He has no career norms.

    The first two years he had OPS+ of 101, which is decent, and then 112 which is pretty good.

    Then he was 88, which is subpar, and this year 29 which is terrible.

    Lifetime it's 93, below average, 100 is league average theoretically.

    In addition, his walk/strikeout ratio is quite poor and his power isn't special, except for one year when he did hit 18 homers.

    If this is the player you want in CF, based on some career norm, go for it. Not I. Although it might be worth it to play him some on the theory that he can't possibly be as bad as he was earlier this season.

    As for defense, I have no problem with Heisey playing some CF, but obviously you have to look at both sides since he has to take his turn at bat.
    Last edited by Kc61; 06-11-2013 at 10:06 AM.

  2. Likes:

    coachpipe (06-11-2013)

  3. Turn Off Ads?
  4. #62
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    1,625

    Re: Uncle Part II: Stop the Madness in CF

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    People who think Shin Soo Choo is a "downright awful" defender have extremely short memories as Reds fans.
    I was thinking "Junior was a while ago" but Baseballreference.com reminded me that willy Tavares had the lion's share of playing time in center in 2009. He took the worst routes I have ever seen.

    I'll take Stubbs in center, but Choo at the plate more than makes up for it.

    Frankly as bad as Choo has looked in center, despite his speed Derrick Robinson has looked just as bad in left. I don't know that moving him into center solves any problems.

    During the off season, Dusty did talk about situationally moving Choo out of center in some of the larger parks, but the only person on the 25 man roster that might be an improvement would be Bruce, and I don't see that happening.
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

  5. #63
    Member Old school 1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,744

    Re: Uncle Part II: Stop the Madness in CF

    Quote Originally Posted by Rock of Truth View Post
    This is insane! If the Reds wanted a guy who could rove CF and run down every ball all the while hitting .230 with a .300 OBP, they would have kept Stubbs.

    Choo > Stubbs > Heisey
    That's not really the case now though. We were banking on the overall offensive production of ludwick in left and choo in center to offset the defensive liability. No matter how we cut it choo is a below average major league centerfielder. Ludwick is more than likely out for the majority of the season. I think it may be time to consider shifting choo to left. When heisey returns the platoon will be he Robinson and Paul. Two of those guys can no argument play centerfield better than choo. Heisey did a great job out there last year and Robinson is a minor league gold glover. IMO Paul should be started as little as possible because his defense is highly suspect despite the fact he has a tough bat. You can't put two defenders of his and choos quality level at their respective positions and expect the team to consistently play playoff caliber ball against plsyoff caliber teams.

    This has really nothing to do with a Stubbs v choo argument. It drives me nuts when people pull out the oh so you'd rather have Stubbs. No I wouldn't, but with the current roster of players the reds have, choo in left or right and either Bruce Robinson or heisey when he returns would bring about the best quality of defense possible from this outfield. And oh I'm saying this as one of the biggest give choo a chance in center supporters before the season. I pretty much instantly changed my mind the minute I saw him play.

  6. #64
    Member Old school 1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,744

    Re: Uncle Part II: Stop the Madness in CF

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    As I've pointed out numerous times, RedEye, Heisey has only played three plus years in the major leagues. He has no career norms.

    The first two years he had OPS+ of 101, which is decent, and then 112 which is pretty good.

    Then he was 88, which is subpar, and this year 29 which is terrible.

    Lifetime it's 93, below average, 100 is league average theoretically.

    In addition, his walk/strikeout ratio is quite poor and his power isn't special, except for one year when he did hit 18 homers.

    If this is the player you want in CF, based on some career norm, go for it. Not I. Although it might be worth it to play him some on the theory that he can't possibly be as bad as he was earlier this season.

    As for defense, I have no problem with Heisey playing some CF, but obviously you have to look at both sides since he has to take his turn at bat.
    Sure heisey only has three years in the league, but the other platoon options in Paul and Robinson have just as much or less. It's not like we are comparing star players here. It's an obvious platoon situation. One thing is for sure though I'd be willing to bet that heisey and Robinson would be better centerfielder a than choo and choo would be a better left fielder than Paul, the main piece used in the current platoon.

  7. #65
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    13,488

    Re: Uncle Part II: Stop the Madness in CF

    The Reds lack two-way outfielders. They do not have a true CFer who can hit adequately.

    The best offensive outfield is Paul, Choo, and Bruce. With a righty platoon for Paul.

    The best defensive outfield would involve Choo in a corner and either Robinson or Heisey in CF.

    There is no perfect solution. At this stage, I strongly prefer the Paul, Choo, Bruce alternative because the offense has been weakened by injury and it needs Paul, Choo, and Bruce to provide a reasonable amount of offense.

    I think Choo is below average in CF but not terrible.

  8. #66
    Member Old school 1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,744

    Re: Uncle Part II: Stop the Madness in CF

    My whole take on the choo in center thing in reality is that the reds will probably ride it out until the deadline with choo in center. At that point they will have to look at who they can lick up as offensive help. If its a left fielder choo probably stays in center. If its a third basemen choo probably shifts over to left. If its a center fielder choo obviously moves over.

  9. #67
    Member Old school 1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,744

    Re: Uncle Part II: Stop the Madness in CF

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    The Reds lack two-way outfielders. They do not have a true CFer who can hit adequately.

    The best offensive outfield is Paul, Choo, and Bruce. With a righty platoon for Paul.

    The best defensive outfield would involve Choo in a corner and either Robinson or Heisey in CF.

    There is no perfect solution. At this stage, I strongly prefer the Paul, Choo, Bruce alternative because the offense has been weakened by injury and it needs Paul, Choo, and Bruce to provide a reasonable amount of offense.

    I think Choo is below average in CF but not terrible.
    I agree with that. Against better teams, especially a team that hits a lot of balls like the cards, I'd want my best defensive team on the field. I think it'd go further towards winning the game to prevent them from scoring. We could use Paul in a tight spot late in the game if its close. And honestly Robinson hasn't looked too shabby offensively. Not saying it'll last but it's true. Heisey also wasn't playing up to his full ability level large career sample size or not. So I think the offense wouldn't be as bad as you think.

  10. #68
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    13,488

    Re: Uncle Part II: Stop the Madness in CF

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    I agree with that. Against better teams, especially a team that hits a lot of balls like the cards, I'd want my best defensive team on the field. I think it'd go further towards winning the game to prevent them from scoring. We could use Paul in a tight spot late in the game if its close. And honestly Robinson hasn't looked too shabby offensively. Not saying it'll last but it's true. Heisey also wasn't playing up to his full ability level large career sample size or not. So I think the offense wouldn't be as bad as you think.
    And I think the current defense isn't as bad as you think.

    Let's not glamorize speed and athleticism. Let's not glamorize style points.

    Drew Stubbs was beautiful to watch and had great range side to side. He muffed many balls close to the outfield wall and wasn't special running in on balls.

    Dusty himself has said Heisey is a corner man primarily.

    As for Robinson, I have no problem using him occasionally but he is strictly a punch and judy hitter. Paul is a far better hitter and can hit the deep drive.

    Choo isn't pretty to watch in CF but he makes most of the plays and has a great throwing arm.

    And all this is just talk because we're in mid-June and the Reds are not moving Choo to the corner this year. Absolutely no sign that they are even thinking of a change.

  11. #69
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    7,968

    Re: Uncle Part II: Stop the Madness in CF

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    As I've pointed out numerous times, RedEye, Heisey has only played three plus years in the major leagues. He has no career norms.

    The first two years he had OPS+ of 101, which is decent, and then 112 which is pretty good.

    Then he was 88, which is subpar, and this year 29 which is terrible.

    Lifetime it's 93, below average, 100 is league average theoretically.
    Fair enough. In your previous post you just listed only his 2012 and 2013 OPS+, which totally neglects that he had been a decent, league-average offensive player in 2010 and 2011. Combine that with his defense in CF, and you've got probably the best two-way in-house replacement for Choo that the team has right now.

    Of course, Heisey is injured. Which I find frustrating to no end.
    Last edited by RedEye; 06-11-2013 at 12:16 PM.

  12. #70
    Member Old school 1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,744

    Re: Uncle Part II: Stop the Madness in CF

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    And I think the current defense isn't as bad as you think.

    Let's not glamorize speed and athleticism. Let's not glamorize style points.

    Drew Stubbs was beautiful to watch and had great range side to side. He muffed many balls close to the outfield wall and wasn't special running in on balls.

    Dusty himself has said Heisey is a corner man primarily.

    As for Robinson, I have no problem using him occasionally but he is strictly a punch and judy hitter. Paul is a far better hitter and can hit the deep drive.

    Choo isn't pretty to watch in CF but he makes most of the plays and has a great throwing arm.

    And all this is just talk because we're in mid-June and the Reds are not moving Choo to the corner this year. Absolutely no sign that they are even thinking of a change.
    Choo is not going to win style points, but he's only going to make the most routine plays consistently. He gets bad reads, bad jumps, and just doesnt have the speed of a normal centerfielder. If he did an at least average job done and didnt look pretty doing it, I'd not have an issue but he does a below average job and doesn't look pretty doing it.

    As far as robinsons hitting sure he's a Judy, but he's been getting on base and adds badly needed speed. If he comes back down to earth, then yeah go with Paul.

    As far as heisey in center, sure her be better in a corner, but he'd be better than choo in center, so that kinda leaves me thinking choo would be better in a corner.

    As of right now, you are correct: a move doesn't look like its coming, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did later in the year. Then again it wouldn't surprise me if he stays put too. I think it all hinges on who the reds can pick up at the deadline.
    Last edited by Old school 1983; 06-11-2013 at 12:52 PM.

  13. #71
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    7,173

    Re: Uncle Part II: Stop the Madness in CF

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    My whole take on the choo in center thing in reality is that the reds will probably ride it out until the deadline with choo in center. At that point they will have to look at who they can lick up as offensive help. If its a left fielder choo probably stays in center. If its a third basemen choo probably shifts over to left. If its a center fielder choo obviously moves over.
    I agree with the general idea, but I'm not sure how adding a 3b would move Choo to LF, with Frazier going to center?

    Or did you mean that if it's a 3b, he'll probably stay in CF(as Frazier plays part time LF and part time 3b?)
    When people say that I donít know what Iím talking about when it comes to sports or writing, I think: Man, you should see me in the rest of my life.
    ---Joe Posnanski

  14. #72
    Member Old school 1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,744

    Re: Uncle Part II: Stop the Madness in CF

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    I agree with the general idea, but I'm not sure how adding a 3b would move Choo to LF, with Frazier going to center?

    Or did you mean that if it's a 3b, he'll probably stay in CF(as Frazier plays part time LF and part time 3b?)
    If he wasnt a part of the deal i think Frazier would become right handed power off the bench and super sub like last year. At that point if ludwick could come back, sure do that and keep choo in center. If not move choo over and play Robinson heisey, or maybe even billy Hamilton out there.
    Last edited by Old school 1983; 06-11-2013 at 01:09 PM.

  15. #73
    Member Old school 1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,744

    Re: Uncle Part II: Stop the Madness in CF

    I think they aren't leaving center open for choo to play, but maybe more so leaving left open for a possible ludwick return or acquistion via trade.

  16. #74
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The 513
    Posts
    12,638

    Re: Uncle Part II: Stop the Madness in CF

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    A proper perspective is he's a bad defender in CF.
    Costs the team, what? A base hit per week? He's bad compared to other people in the league, but it isn't like he can't catch routine balls or is like a pitcher running around out there.

    Meanwhile, he's providing plus value with his bat in the leadoff spot and allows the team to pursue another impact bat for LF at the deadline if Ryan Ludwick cannot come back.

    The hand-wringing over his defense is silly. He isn't great. So what. He still makes way more plays than he misses, and last I checked .400+ OBP bats don't grow on trees.
    Championships Matter.
    23 Years and Counting...

  17. #75
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The 513
    Posts
    12,638

    Re: Uncle Part II: Stop the Madness in CF

    Actually, if we're being technical, all bats grow on trees -- but that's beside the point.
    Championships Matter.
    23 Years and Counting...


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25