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Thread: Broxton to the DL, Villarreal back up

  1. #121
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Broxton to the DL, Villarreal back up

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger View Post
    So because we are not being positive or confused about the moves and 40 man roster management......this is a problem? I am assuming stating this reads like a Game Thread is not exactly an endorsement of what we are discussing?
    Lots and lots of knee jerk reactionary emotionalism. Most RZ threads aren't as emotional as the game threads.

    That's ok, I read game threads, too. Just an observation, that's all.

    I didn't touch a nerve, did I? If so, I apologize and will add to the conversation.

    The hottest team in baseball, the Cards, have also had the worst injury problems, and have literally replaced their roster while on the fly and seemingly not missing a beat. I do agree that the 40 man roster seems thin, especially when it's time to lean on it. In the beginning of the season, the Reds pitching depth was supposed to be the team's strength; now it seems a weakness, at least in the pen. The Cards bring up their good young pitchers and start them off in the bullpen, I think the Reds need to consider doing that as well

    Masset, Marshall and now Broxton (and I think he's been hurt for a while, though that's easy to say now). Arredondo and Ondrusek mere shadows of what they were last year.

    Hard to fill in those guys with the likes of Parra, Simon and Villareal.

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  4. #122
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    Re: Broxton to the DL, Villarreal back up

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    Lots and lots of knee jerk reactionary emotionalism. Most RZ threads aren't as emotional as the game threads.

    That's ok, I read game threads, too. Just an observation, that's all.

    I didn't touch a nerve, did I? If so, I apologize and will add to the conversation.

    The hottest team in baseball, the Cards, have also had the worst injury problems, and have literally replaced their roster while on the fly and seemingly not missing a beat. I do agree that the 40 man roster seems thin, especially when it's time to lean on it. In the beginning of the season, the Reds pitching depth was supposed to be the team's strength; now it seems a weakness, at least in the pen. The Cards bring up their good young pitchers and start them off in the bullpen, I think the Reds need to consider doing that as well

    Masset, Marshall and now Broxton (and I think he's been hurt for a while, though that's easy to say now). Arredondo and Ondrusek mere shadows of what they were last year.

    Hard to fill in those guys with the likes of Parra, Simon and Villareal.

    No you did not touch a nerve. I just did not want to come off as reactionary either....but this frustration with the usage of the 40 man, even before the injuries...has had me annoyed all season. My apologies if I came off as calling you out.

    The need for a RH bat off the bench......to replace Lutz has been needed for a month now. Maybe Paul could then be used hitting second...and then Dusty has a lifeline for his biggest fear other ...than being asked why closers cannot pitch the eight or in tie games....is the LOOGY coming in.

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  6. #123
    malingered here too long malcontent's Avatar
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    Re: Broxton to the DL, Villarreal back up

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger View Post
    The managing of the 40 man has been poor since the last few years. They also seem to procrastinate during the year in making moves. Just hoping things will be fine until the DL players come back.....just not my cup of tea. Not expecting Walt to go all Bowden and move people up and down....but they seem content just riding this out and I guess the WC is always there, but I would not be looking to just play for a WC this early in the season.
    When it comes to moves....Jocketty's not just not pro-active, he's anti-active.

    But yeah, it's damned hard to believe Baker refused to use Chapman when Broxton's elbow was hurting.

    I mean, the Reds might have won that game and not had to use JB.

    But knowing Broxton wasn't available, Baker blew the game the way he went through the pen.
    Last edited by malcontent; 06-15-2013 at 07:47 PM.
    Everything is perfect, but there is a lot of room for improvement. --- Shunryu Suzuki-roshi

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    Re: Broxton to the DL, Villarreal back up

    Quote Originally Posted by malcontent View Post
    When it comes to moves....Jocketty's not just not pro-active, he's anti-active.

    But yeah, it's damned hard to believe Baker refused to use Chapman when Broxton's elbow was hurting.

    I mean, the Reds might have won that game and not had to use JB.

    But knowing Broxton wasn't available, Baker blew the game the way he went through the pen.
    The non-use of Chapman in the fourteenth the other day, while debatable, is clearly explanable.

    So let me ask the following questions.

    First, if Aroldis comes in for bottom fourteen, doesn't he need to pitch two innings or more for the Reds to win?

    Second, if Aroldis goes multi-innings is he then available Friday in a tie with the Brewers?

    Third, if Brox gets through the fourteenth, as he almost did, and the Reds then take the lead, isn't Chapman set up for a one inning save?

    Fourth, with Latos allowing four runs in six innings, how else should Baker have managed the pen? I mean, to win, not just to get by. Specifically.
    Last edited by Kc61; 06-15-2013 at 08:03 PM.

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  10. #125
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    Re: Broxton to the DL, Villarreal back up

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    The non-use of Chapman in the fourteenth the other day, while debatable, is clearly explanable.

    So let me ask the following questions.

    First, if Aroldis comes in for bottom fourteen, doesn't he need to pitch two innings or more for the Reds to win?

    Second, if Aroldis goes multi-innings is he then available Friday in a tie with the Brewers?

    Third, if Brox gets through the fourteenth, as he almost did, and the Reds then take the lead, isn't Chapman set up for a one inning save?

    Fourth, with Latos allowing four runs in six innings, how else should Baker have managed the pen? I mean, to win, not just to get by. Specifically.

    Chapman could easily have gone 1-2 innings with less than 25 pitches. If he cannot come back the next day after just 25n pitches, he should not be a closer....besides the obvious fact he should be in the rotation to begin with. But I look at him as the Closer..... so again...I have seen very few, if any closers who could not throw 25 pitches in one game, even if it is 2 innings and come back the next day to pitch 1 inning.

    The issue of Broxton's injury is on Walt as well...if he is hurt....he should have been DL'D already. But like Malcontent has stated... Walt is about as inactive as a 1000 year old Mummy.
    DURING the regular season.

  11. #126
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    Re: Broxton to the DL, Villarreal back up

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    The non-use of Chapman in the fourteenth the other day, while debatable, is clearly explanable.
    Game strategy isn't the issue here IMO. How does Dusty manage Chapman like a china doll, and then send our set up man into a game with a strained elbow without batting an eye? That was just irresponsibly stubborn.

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  13. #127
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    Re: Broxton to the DL, Villarreal back up

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    Game strategy isn't the issue here IMO. How does Dusty manage Chapman like a china doll, and then send our set up man into a game with a strained elbow without batting an eye? That was just irresponsibly stubborn.
    Dusty explained this. He used Broxton on Thursday because he was informed by the docs that Broxton would not further hurt his elbow by pitching. Broxton said he could pitch an inning.

    As for Chapman being used like a china doll, he has more appearances than any other Red this year. And even if Dusty is somewhat protective of Chapman, wouldn't you be? Isn't his left arm kind of valuable?

    Latos didn't have a good game Thursday and was out after six. Dusty used Simon but then needed to get out a lefty. He used Parra. He then used Lecure in the eighth, and he failed to hold the lead. Then Hoover and Partch.

    Sometimes in games unexpected things happen and very few managers manage games assuming fourteen innings. Dusty did his best and I don't blame him at all.

    One poster on this rather hysterical thread claimed that Dusty caused Broxton to "blow out" his elbow costing the Reds $21 million dollars.

    Meanwhile, I read today that Broxton could be throwing in three days but the team put him on the DL to avoid having a short bullpen.
    Last edited by Kc61; 06-15-2013 at 11:42 PM.

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  15. #128
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    Re: Broxton to the DL, Villarreal back up

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger View Post
    Chapman could easily have gone 1-2 innings with less than 25 pitches. If he cannot come back the next day after just 25n pitches, he should not be a closer....besides the obvious fact he should be in the rotation to begin with. But I look at him as the Closer..... so again...I have seen very few, if any closers who could not throw 25 pitches in one game, even if it is 2 innings and come back the next day to pitch 1 inning.

    The issue of Broxton's injury is on Walt as well...if he is hurt....he should have been DL'D already. But like Malcontent has stated... Walt is about as inactive as a 1000 year old Mummy.
    DURING the regular season.
    One inning was not an option. If Aroldis only pitched one inning, the Reds lose. If he comes in in the bottom of the fourteenth, two innings are required in a win.

    How many closers work two innings and then come back the next day? Not many. And what if it took 30 or 35 pitches to get through two innings?

    Dusty handled a difficult, unexpected situation as best as could reasonably be expected. And since Brox wasn't on the DL, and Dusty was told he wouldn't hurt the elbow by pitching, and Brox said he could work an inning, I don't see the issue.

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  17. #129
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    Re: Broxton to the DL, Villarreal back up

    So if Villarreal goes down tomorrow, that means Cingrani is in the pen. I hope so. Any thoughts?
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  18. #130
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    Re: Broxton to the DL, Villarreal back up

    Cingrani MUST STAY! We NEED him in the pen now. We are short of reliable arms out there now, plus he gives us a reliever who can go 4-5 innings in case we get embroiled in an extended extra inning affair.

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    Re: Broxton to the DL, Villarreal back up

    Our bullpen when Marshall returns needs to be:

    Chapman
    Marshall
    LeCure
    Hoover
    Cingrani
    Simon
    Broxton (when healthy) Till then Partch

    DFA Parra

  20. #132
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    Re: Broxton to the DL, Villarreal back up

    I'd keep Cingrani starting. His future as a starter is important to the team -- even this year, should somebody else go down. You shouldn't be jerking a prized prospect like him around. (You know that Baker will run him out there 5 times in a week if they play a stretch of close games.) If you get towards the end of the year and he's at or near his innings limit, different story. The team is still in good shape, standings wise.

    I said this last year. Sometimes the FO and the manager/pitching coach need to show they can get creative and patch the bullpen. Don't panic. Let your #6 starter stay on his routine. You never know when you may need him to plug a much bigger hole than currently exists in the pen.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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  22. #133
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    Re: Broxton to the DL, Villarreal back up

    Is Arredondo still suspended? Villarreal has looked pretty much like a AAAA pitcher every time I've seen him out there. I know Arredondo has had issues this year, but maybe those could stem from mental issues created by being put in the minors after a solid season, then wstching guys like parra and Villarreal getting the call in the bigs and getting roughed up. I think Arredondo needs a shot. He could be a better contributor than some members of the pen if his track record holds true.

  23. #134
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    Re: Broxton to the DL, Villarreal back up

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    I'd keep Cingrani starting. His future as a starter is important to the team -- even this year, should somebody else go down. You shouldn't be jerking a prized prospect like him around. (You know that Baker will run him out there 5 times in a week if they play a stretch of close games.) If you get towards the end of the year and he's at or near his innings limit, different story. The team is still in good shape, standings wise.

    I said this last year. Sometimes the FO and the manager/pitching coach need to show they can get creative and patch the bullpen. Don't panic. Let your #6 starter stay on his routine. You never know when you may need him to plug a much bigger hole than currently exists in the pen.

    I think this is being creative. I think he can be good coming from the bullpen with his fastball and helps limit his innings as well. Very good pitchers have done this and it has helped them develop. Scott McGregor. Mike Flanagan. Orel Hershiser. This helps this team now until Walt decides to make another move for bullpen help help, although I think the bench needs his attention right now.

  24. #135
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    Re: Broxton to the DL, Villarreal back up

    Marshall saying he will be out at least 3 more weeks.

    I bet Cingrani is going to stay until Marshall returns.


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