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Thread: Why in the world do people say that Choo doesn't hit well against lefty?

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    Why in the world do people say that Choo doesn't hit well against lefty?

    Even TV commentators and baseball columnists say like that.
    His OBP against the lefty is .326 which is well above league average (.300) for left handed batters VS left handed pitchers and is even higher than Jay Bruce's who is hitting .294 against lefties.
    People are just stupid. All they know is AVG, HR and RBI.

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    Daffy Duck RedTeamGo!'s Avatar
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    Re: Why in the world do people say that Choo doesn't hit well against lefty?

    Well, technically this season he is not hitting well against lefties. He gets on base at a decent clip but he has a .526 OPS this season against left handed pitchers. That is very low. A slugging percentage of .206 is downright awful.

    Career .681 OPS against lefties is pretty bad as well. Bruce has a career .757 OPS vs lefties and an .852 OPS this season, which is downright excellent.

    I suppose the answer to your question of why do people say Choo doesn't hit lefties well is because he does not.

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    Re: Why in the world do people say that Choo doesn't hit well against lefty?

    Probably the same ones yelling how much Sam Lecure sucks

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    Daffy Duck RedTeamGo!'s Avatar
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    Re: Why in the world do people say that Choo doesn't hit well against lefty?

    Quote Originally Posted by coachpipe View Post
    Probably the same ones yelling how much Sam Lecure sucks
    Choo does not hit lefties well. This is a fact.

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    Re: Why in the world do people say that Choo doesn't hit well against lefty?

    I think sometimes we can be a little TOO sabre-specific.
    Sometimes 'hit' just simply means hit. And its clear Choo doesn't hit well vs lefties.

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    Re: Why in the world do people say that Choo doesn't hit well against lefty?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    Well, technically this season he is not hitting well against lefties. He gets on base at a decent clip but he has a .526 OPS this season against left handed pitchers. That is very low. A slugging percentage of .206 is downright awful.

    Career .681 OPS against lefties is pretty bad as well. Bruce has a career .757 OPS vs lefties and an .852 OPS this season, which is downright excellent.

    I suppose the answer to your question of why do people say Choo doesn't hit lefties well is because he does not.
    First, you have to acknowledge the fact that OBP is the most important and valuable batting stats and the value of BB

    Second, Having low SLG and OPS is inevitable consequence for Choo because he gets on base by BB a lot rather than by HIT.

    Third, SLG and OPS are not as reliable batting statistics as OBP.

    Slugging percentage weights hits, but not accurately (Is a double worth twice as much as a single? In short, no)

    On-base plus slugging (OPS) does attempt to combine the different aspects of hitting into one metric, but it assumes that one percentage point of SLG is the same as that of OBP. In reality, a handy estimate is that OBP is around twice as valuable than SLG. (the exact ratio is x1.8)

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    Daffy Duck RedTeamGo!'s Avatar
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    Re: Why in the world do people say that Choo doesn't hit well against lefty?

    Quote Originally Posted by qotsa04 View Post
    First, you have to acknowledge the fact that OBP is the most important and valuable batting stats and the value of BB

    Second, Having low SLG and OPS is inevitable consequence for Choo because he gets on base by BB a lot rather than by HIT.

    Third, SLG and OPS are not as reliable batting statistics as OBP.

    Slugging percentage weights hits, but not accurately (Is a double worth twice as much as a single? In short, no)

    On-base plus slugging (OPS) does attempt to combine the different aspects of hitting into one metric, but it assumes that one percentage point of SLG is the same as that of OBP. In reality, a handy estimate is that OBP is around twice as valuable than SLG. (the exact ratio is x1.8)
    Yes, a double is worth twice as much as a single.

    single = 1 base
    double = 2 bases

    exactly twice as much.

    I don't understand your second point, as it does not make sense. A player can both walk often and hit well for power. (Joey Votto and Shin Soo Choo vs right handed pitchers)

    If Choo does not have a high OPS because of his walk rates why is he OPSing over 1.000 against right handed pitchers with a whopping .600 Slugging%?

    This is not difficult:

    Shin Soo Choo (2013):

    vs RHP: 1.075 OPS
    vs LHP: .526 OPS

    Shin Soo Choo (career):

    vs RHP: .929
    vs LHP: .681

    This is about as clear cut as it gets.

    Literally the only stat that Choo has that is ok against lefties is his obp. Any way you cut it a .526 OPS is really bad.

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    Re: Why in the world do people say that Choo doesn't hit well against lefty?

    Because he doesn't hit well against lefties. Watch the games and get your nose out of the inane and absurd sabremetrics.... something created and worshipped by people that could not play the game. His swings against left handers, and his approach to left handers is different than to right handers. He does not see the ball ad effectively, and his problem against lefties seems to be that his front side is flying open to see the ball better, but his hands are dragging through to stay back and throw the ball opposite field. I am guessing he is left eye dominant and he is trying to compensate for it.

    Don Cameron
    You need to play the game to understand the game.

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    Daffy Duck RedTeamGo!'s Avatar
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    Re: Why in the world do people say that Choo doesn't hit well against lefty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Cameron View Post
    Because he doesn't hit well against lefties. Watch the games and get your nose out of the inane and absurd sabremetrics....

    Don Cameron
    You need to play the game to understand the game.
    He is not using sabrmetrics. He is putting all of his eggs in one basket (obp), which is the exact opposite of what sabrmetricians do.

    That last statement underneath your name is ridiculous.

    I keep forgetting you know more about baseball than successful baseball organizations such as the Boston Red Sox (who built their recent championship teams using sabr stats), forgive me.
    Last edited by RedTeamGo!; 06-14-2013 at 12:36 PM.

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    Re: Why in the world do people say that Choo doesn't hit well against lefty?

    And don't forget it either. The Red Sox... really? Their success had nothing to do with old fashion pre-saber baseball I suppose. Let's see.. two future hall of fame starters, the most dominant right handed hitter since Mays in left field, a great left handed four hitter... the only saber player they had was really Youk, and he played no part in their first world series.

    Billy Beane has done great with sabermetrics. It is about players and understanding the game. WAR and all of that other crap is so over used.

    Don Cameron
    A true baseball man

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    Re: Why in the world do people say that Choo doesn't hit well against lefty?

    Choo's OPS vs LHP is .529. The Reds team average OPS (including Choo's) is .739 with a team OBP of .335 vs LHP.

    Choo only has 3 XBH's (all doubles) in 74 AB's vs LHP and is slugging .203 vs LHP.
    http://espn.go.com/mlb/team/stats/ba...incinnati-reds

    Choo's OBP may exceed the league average for Lefties vs LHP but the is always the option of using a righty hitter too. Choo is great vs RHP but the above is why people say he does not hit LHP well. Then again maybe I am stupid.

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    Re: Why in the world do people say that Choo doesn't hit well against lefty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Cameron View Post
    And don't forget it either. The Red Sox... really? Their success had nothing to do with old fashion pre-saber baseball I suppose. Let's see.. two future hall of fame starters, the most dominant right handed hitter since Mays in left field, a great left handed four hitter... the only saber player they had was really Youk, and he played no part in their first world series.

    Billy Beane has done great with sabermetrics. It is about players and understanding the game. WAR and all of that other crap is so over used.

    Don Cameron
    A true baseball man
    No offense, but I think you have taken a narrow view of sabermetrics.

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    Re: Why in the world do people say that Choo doesn't hit well against lefty?

    So Mr. Cameron,

    What do you make of the fact that one of the game's best hitters, our own Joey Votto (he played the game!) is interested in SABR stats and looks his own up regularly?

    That "if you didn't play the game, you can't understand it" stuff is garbage, and this is from someone who DID play the game. It makes you sound like someone incapable of understanding the statistical side of things, so you pound your chest and say "Well you nerds never played so naaahh naaahhh".

    It's one thing to think using stats and SABR data and nothing else is a bad way to evaluate the game, and I'd tend to agree. But to drag out that old "if you didn't play the game" line really, really is not going to make you any friends. At all.
    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    Don't worry. I'd say the game threads are about league average.
    2013 Reds Record when I attend: 5-4
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  20. #14
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    Re: Why in the world do people say that Choo doesn't hit well against lefty?

    I still don't understand why we cant say Choo doesn't hit lefties well but he does get on base against them at a higher clip than the league average lefty batter. Both things can be true. He doesn't hit lefties well but he gets on base against them well. Why do we have to act as if there is no such thing/word as HITTING just because their exists something called on base percentage? They are two different things. One is apart of the other...but they are two different things and both statements can be true.

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    Re: Why in the world do people say that Choo doesn't hit well against lefty?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    Yes, a double is worth twice as much as a single.

    single = 1 base
    double = 2 bases

    exactly twice as much.
    Wow, amazing! Do you really think like that? In reality? No, only numerically!
    There is nothing more to tell you who think that way.


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