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View Poll Results: Grade dusty and Price bullpen usage

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  • A

    3 4.76%
  • B

    25 39.68%
  • C

    20 31.75%
  • D

    12 19.05%
  • F

    3 4.76%
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Thread: Dusty/Price Bullpen Usage

  1. #1
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Dusty/Price Bullpen Usage

    Poll time!

    Not grading the pitchers, who I believe we should all agree need to pitch better.

    Grade Dusty and his staff on the handling of the pen.

    A-F
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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  3. #2
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    Re: Dusty/Price Bullpen Usage

    I gave him a B, but relative to the horrific bullpen MGMT that goes on around baseball, that's pretty good.

  4. #3
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty/Price Bullpen Usage

    I graded C for passable. Barely though. They should check in to see whether they can get some extra credit to bring the grade up. I'm offering 0.05% for each maximized lineup and for each time Chapman is used in a truly high leverage situation.

  5. #4
    Pitcairn Islander Red Buckeye's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty/Price Bullpen Usage

    D and it wasn't an F because the Reds overall record is good. But a manager who says Broxton is the last resort, only to use him before he uses his best reliever in Chapman, doesn't deserve higher than a D, imo.

    But what else is new? Dusty has always been a pitcher's worst nightmare.

  6. #5
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty/Price Bullpen Usage

    I'll agree they are average. I agree they use the pen pretty much like everyone else. I don't agree that it's a good thing.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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  8. #6
    Member crazybob60's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty/Price Bullpen Usage

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Buckeye View Post
    D and it wasn't an F because the Reds overall record is good. But a manager who says Broxton is the last resort, only to use him before he uses his best reliever in Chapman, doesn't deserve higher than a D, imo.

    But what else is new? Dusty has always been a pitcher's worst nightmare.
    I totally agree with you 100%

  9. #7
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty/Price Bullpen Usage

    For those of you that graded them as a b, what would it take to make it an A?
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  10. #8
    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty/Price Bullpen Usage

    Would've said C before yesterday's game, but that was an F-- effort, so they get a D.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

  11. #9
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty/Price Bullpen Usage

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    For those of you that graded them as a b, what would it take to make it an A?
    More 3+ out saves for Chapman. Other than that Dusty is a little rigid in his roles. But when guys like Broxton and LeCure aren't performing your going to be in trouble. Dusty can only call on the guy who he thinks has the best chance to get outs. He can make the pitchers strike out hitters.

  12. #10
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    Re: Dusty/Price Bullpen Usage

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    For those of you that graded them as a b, what would it take to make it an A?
    I know part of this is just him being a players manager and to some extent that might be paying off, but I personally would give him an A if he had a quicker hook.

    You rarely see Dusty with a precautionary pitching change in an effort to get out in front of a potential problem inning. Instead, he typically just waits as long as he possibly can and makes the change once it's painfully obvious he's not getting any more out of the starter.

    He does this to a lesser extent with some relievers as well. When Hoover has allowed 3 baserunners in the inning, thrown 25 pitches, and facing his 6th batter, he's not in a great position to succeed. Pull him mid-inning and see if someone can get us out of it.

    Personally, I appreciate fact that guys have roles and he sticks to them until their is strong evidence that it isn't working. Then he changes it up.

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  14. #11
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    Re: Dusty/Price Bullpen Usage

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    Would've said C before yesterday's game, but that was an F-- effort, so they get a D.
    I'm curious, I assume you would have brought Chapman in earlier... what else would you have done differently yesterday?

  15. #12
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty/Price Bullpen Usage

    I gave him a B because there are times where I wish he would have brought Chapman in earlier in one of these extra inning games. I don't like seeing the last man in the bullpen pitching before Chapman before on opprotunity that may never prevent itself.

    Other than that, I don't have very many complaints.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  16. #13
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    Re: Dusty/Price Bullpen Usage

    Yesterday was mind boggling. The rubber match against the Cardinals showed Baker's lack of creativity and stubbornness. I give him a D because he is wasting the best bullpen weapon by limiting Chapman so much.

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  18. #14
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    Re: Dusty/Price Bullpen Usage

    I went with a D. Yesterday’s game lowered it a whole grade for me. There are philosophical strategies up for debate. I would NEVER use a guy who is off limits just to save my closer for a “save” situation. That is about the most ludicrous idea I’ve heard of. Especially if Broxton really needed the day off.

    I hate the idea of saving your closer for a save situation on the road, especially when he is a dominant closer. I feel, once you get into extra innings, you sort of use your bullpen backwards, the way you do it at home. I would use my best pitchers starting in the 9th and then go down the line. If Chapman can throw 2 innings, then I let him throw the 9th and 10th. Then my next BEST reliever that is available. Essentially, yesterday, Broxton would have been my dead last resort, or I go with a position player if he is unavailable. It brings up another topic of, does there come a point where you just give up? Do you want to be like the Yankees and play 18 innings, burn all your pen, AND lose? I’d rather just lose in 14 or 15. There comes a point where it is not worth it.

    Also, the bottom line for me is: I never want to lose a game in extras, on the road, because I was saving my best reliever for when we have a lead. You may never get one if you have to use your worst pitchers first.

    Dusty’s use of Broxton in general has been baffling. The fact he was the no doubt 8th inning guy until last week didn’t make sense to me, because he clearly wasn’t our second best pitcher (we happened to need our second best a lot because we were seeing middle of the order in close games). Sam hasn’t worked out, and I certainly don’t blame Dusty for that, because I think it was the right move.

    I also thought he abused JJ Hoover earlier in the year, while never pitching Broxton til we were winning in the 8th, as if he was the “closer of the 8th” or something.

    Overall, Dusty has been hamstrung by an underachieving and injured pen (at least Marshall). But I still haven’t liked how he handled it. I’m not blaming the bad pen on him, he just hasn’t helped at all, in my opinion.
    Last edited by TOBTTReds; 06-14-2013 at 04:55 PM.

  19. #15
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty/Price Bullpen Usage

    I went with C, meaning league average. As we've discussed at length, Dusty strongly adheres to a model of player usage rooted in fixed roles. This is more or less standard practice across MLB. However, even in doing so, he generally puts his best relievers in the tighest spots and doesn't force guys to do stuff they're not comfortable doing. He also doesn't over-react to guys who are struggling, which can be a strength or a weakness depending on who you're talking about.

    The following table shows Reds relievers sorted by gmLI, fangraphs measure for the average game-situation leverage at the point when the player enters the game. A figure of 1.0 is an average leverage situation and historically, league leaders tend to top out around 2.0.

    Code:
    #	Name			gmLI
    1	Aroldis Chapman		1.87
    2	Sean Marshall		1.57
    3	J.J. Hoover		1.56
    4	Jonathan Broxton	1.43
    5	Sam LeCure		1.33
    6	Alfredo Simon		0.89
    7	Curtis Partch		0.87
    8	Manny Parra		0.84
    9	Logan Ondrusek		0.73
    10	Justin Freeman		0.01
    I definitely have issues with certain choices Dusty makes, particularly regarding treating Marshall like a LOOGY at times and his slavish adherence to the save stat (see last night's non-use of Chapman). But on balance, I think it would be fair to say that he's more or less average -- could be better, but certainly could be worse.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 06-14-2013 at 05:12 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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