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Thread: Votto: where's his head lately?

  1. #61
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Votto: where's his head lately?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    It's the type of question that we aren't going to arrive at any compelling conclusions about in this context. Hmmm... maybe he's having anxiety again? Maybe he's on PED's? Maybe his fiancée is having career difficulty? (I kid on that one). Anyway, there isn't really any provable answer, and we're just headed down a rabbit hole with these possibilities for which the only real answer is, "Well, maybe!"

    Now it's different if there is some sort of substantiated report that Votto is distracted. Then we have something to discuss. But at the moment, we are just engaging in pointless speculation IMO.
    What discussion have we ever had on here that leads to a definitive answer?

    May as well shut it down if that's the criteria for having a discussion because I can't remember it ever happening.
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  4. #62
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    Re: Votto: where's his head lately?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Getting picked-off while day-dreaming. Not going after a foul pop that was clearly his ball and Mesoraco had to dive to get. Taking a non-chalant approach on throws to first. Multiple times he's just stood there with a throw that was off-line and lamely reached and waved at it. He didn't shift his feet or position himself to catch the ball. Stuff like that. I get that these things happen, but they aren't really physical errors, they are mental mistakes and when they happen in a cluster over a couple of weeks, I think it's OK to raise the question.

    I realize that we won't arrive at a definitive answer, but when do we really? It doesn't stop us from discussing anything else. I don't think the OP deserved to be mocked the way he has in this thread. His observation was not wrong.
    Thanks, I haven't seen much TV games the past week, day games on work days are hard to follow.

  5. #63
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Mth, It isn't about a definitive answer (your words). It's about a compelling explanation. I have no idea where a thread like this can go other than to highly speculative, often personal, and sometimes objectionable explanations. Are we going to spend an entire thread wondering about what's going on every time a Reds player makes a few mistakes? Probably not -- but for Votto we seem to want to lately. I just don't think it is necessary.

    I am happy to stand corrected if this thread actually does generate any productive discussion other than whispers about Joey's knee, his mental health or his personal life. Until that happens, I will continue to maintain that this board has far more potential than to be the baseball equivalent of a rumor mag.
    Last edited by RedEye; 06-16-2013 at 08:44 PM.
    "I’ll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. That’s just how I do things.” -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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  7. #64
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Votto: where's his head lately?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Mth, It isn't about a definitive answer (your words). It's about a compelling explanation. I have no idea where a thread like this can go other than to highly speculative, often personal, and sometimes objectionable explanations. Are we going to spend an entire thread wondering about what's going on every time a Reds player makes a few mistakes? Probably not -- but for Votto we seem to want to lately. I just don't think it is necessary.

    I am happy to stand corrected if this thread actually does generate any productive discussion other than whispers about Joey's knee, his mental health or his personal life. Until that happens, I will continue to maintain that this board has far more potential than to be the baseball equivalent of a rumor mag.
    Would you agree, then, that we do not need these same threads on a weekly basis concerning Dusty Baker?

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  9. #65
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Votto: where's his head lately?

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    Would you agree, then, that we do not need these same threads on a weekly basis concerning Dusty Baker?
    As I just mentioned, the quality of the conversation about Dusty here is usually very different. Those threads usually cover the merits of his strategy in the game -- of his lineups, of his bullpen usage, etc. Though some posters do occasionally attack him personally, that's not something I condone or hope for, and it doesn't disqualify the merits of the other discussions that happen, since there are concrete elements of managerial choice that can be discussed fruitfully regarding Dusty. With Votto's supposed "boneheadedness" we have few places to go other than baseless speculation. I suspect that's where the mocking comes in (though I don't condone that either).

  10. #66
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Votto: where's his head lately?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    As I just mentioned, the quality of the conversation about Dusty here is usually very different. Those threads usually cover the merits of his strategy in the game -- of his lineups, of his bullpen usage, etc. Though some posters do occasionally attack him personally, that's not something I condone or hope for, and it doesn't disqualify the merits of the other discussions that happen, since there are concrete elements of managerial choice that can be discussed fruitfully regarding Dusty. With Votto's supposed "boneheadedness" we have few places to go other than baseless speculation. I suspect that's where the mocking comes in (though I don't condone that either).
    Actually with Joey's issues of late (being picked off easily while seemingly daydreaming, dropping 2 routine throws to 1B, miscommunication on pop flys with both Bruce and Mes) it's pretty easy to see in black and white, it is definitely not "baseless speculation." Joe had a rough week, he doesn't have that very often. He looked as if his mind were elsewhere. He needed a day off. Make no mistake, Joey Votto at 80-90% is still a great ballplayer, but others whom have noticed the same as me deserve to be heard, I think.

    With Dusty, I see a ton of daily, constant speculation, baseless or not. There is certainly room for healthy discussion over who should play and who should not, the batting order, and how to handle a pitching staff. But the constant second guessing is tiresome, to me and others here, and I really don't see how Joey Votto is innocent this week, but Dusty Baker is guilty and must be 2nd guessed.

    This is a Reds message board, so I understand why Dusty is constantly called out. I tend to just skip over those threads, unless they are outrageously egregious.

    Shouldn't we apply the same standards to all Reds players that are applied here to Dusty? Or no? Why should Joey not be held to that standard that many have set here?

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  12. #67
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    Re: Votto: where's his head lately?

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    Actually with Joey's issues of late (being picked off easily while seemingly daydreaming, dropping 2 routine throws to 1B, miscommunication on pop flys with both Bruce and Mes) it's pretty easy to see in black and white, it is definitely not "baseless speculation." Joe had a rough week, he doesn't have that very often. He looked as if his mind were elsewhere. He needed a day off. Make no mistake, Joey Votto at 80-90% is still a great ballplayer, but others whom have noticed the same as me deserve to be heard, I think.

    With Dusty, I see a ton of daily, constant speculation, baseless or not. There is certainly room for healthy discussion over who should play and who should not, the batting order, and how to handle a pitching staff. But the constant second guessing is tiresome, to me and others here, and I really don't see how Joey Votto is innocent this week, but Dusty Baker is guilty and must be 2nd guessed.

    This is a Reds message board, so I understand why Dusty is constantly called out. I tend to just skip over those threads, unless they are outrageously egregious.

    Shouldn't we apply the same standards to all Reds players that are applied here to Dusty? Or no? Why should Joey not be held to that standard that many have set here?
    You are missing my point. Let's say I grant you that Votto has made a few more mental errors lately. Where do we go from there? Not very far at all. We won't arrive at any kind of sound reasoning for why these things happened other than empty clichés and platitudes ("he needs a day off" or "he needs to get his head in the game") or crazy, baseless speculation ("maybe his anxiety is back!") That's not good form for a community like ours, IMO.

    With Dusty, the conversation does sometimes veer towards the distasteful, but many times it also involves questioning his actual game strategy or his philosophy of managing (lineup, bullpen usage, in-game substitutions). That's different, and it can be fruitful. It's certainly fodder for an internet message board like ours. It too can get tired if done incessantly -- but at least it's not just sensationalism from the get go ("maybe he's still worried about his knee!")
    Last edited by RedEye; 06-16-2013 at 09:50 PM.

  13. #68
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Votto: where's his head lately?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    You are missing my point. Let's say I grant you that Votto has made a few more mental errors lately. Where do we go from there? Not very far at all. We won't arrive at any kind of sound reasoning for why these things happened other than empty clichés and platitudes ("he needs a day off" or "he needs to get his head in the game") or crazy, baseless speculation ("maybe his anxiety is back!") That's not good form for a community like ours, IMO.

    With Dusty, the conversation does sometimes veer towards the distasteful, but many times it also involves questioning his actual game strategy (lineup, bullpen usage, in-game substitutions). That's different, and it can be fruitful. It too can get old -- but at least it's not just sensationalism from the get go.
    It's really a simple question- should the same standard be applied to threads about both Reds players and the manager Dusty Baker? Understand that I do not accuse you of doing so, RedEye. But many here do apply different standards.

    Should we have the same standard or not?

    As I stated before, Joey's lapses this week were easy for all to see. Baker's "lapses" are not considered lapses by all. Votto got a little ribbing in this thread and some took umbrage. Baker receives constant ridicule and criticism, on a daily basis, over decisions that he makes that most other managers in the game would do the exact same thing as he does.

    If Joey's off limits, then maybe Dusty should be, too.

    If Dusty's fair game, then maybe Joey should be, too.

    That's all I'm saying. Fair is fair. I'm big fans of both of them.

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    Re: Votto: where's his head lately?

    double post
    Last edited by RedEye; 06-16-2013 at 09:58 PM.

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    Re: Votto: where's his head lately?

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    It's really a simple question- should the same standard be applied to threads about both Reds players and the manager Dusty Baker? Understand that I do not accuse you of doing so, RedEye. But many here do apply different standards.
    And what I'm saying is that in the case of this thread, we're asking very different questions. If I saw a thread title exactly like this one with Baker's name attached, I would absolutely have the same problem. Thing is though, there haven't been that many threads like this about Baker. Almost all of them have been about his actual game strategy, which can be more fruitfully debated on a message board without resorting to baseless accusations and speculation.

  17. #71
    Member foxfire123's Avatar
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    Re: Votto: where's his head lately?

    So, let's make some wild assumptions here.

    1. One of the little brothers failed math and Joey is stressed out trying to find a good tutor.

    2. Mom is dating again and it's freaking Joey out.

    3. Girlfriend just dropped a "we're preggers!" bombshell.

    4. Aliens landed and the real Joey is visiting Jupiter while a doppleganger plays in his place for a week.

    Come on, everyone is entitled to the occasional bad week. We all have them. Some of us more often than others (Raises hand here).

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  19. #72
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Votto: where's his head lately?

    I think the parallel Dusty thread would involve Corry Patterson dating or not dating his daughter.

    Bringing up Votto's depression issues every time he slumps is the equivalent except not funny.

    As pretty much everyone knows I have some of the same issues Votto has. If someone brought up that fact every time I screwed up at work....
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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  21. #73
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    Re: Votto: where's his head lately?

    Votto's personal life must be doing great today because he's 1 for 1 with a sweet defensive gem.

    Do you guys think he got a great cup of coffee at breakfast? Maybe a cute fan blew him a kiss during batting practice? We need to get to the bottom of this.
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  22. #74
    Member VR's Avatar
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    Re: Votto: where's his head lately?

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    Votto's personal life must be doing great today because he's 1 for 1 with a sweet defensive gem.

    Do you guys think he got a great cup of coffee at breakfast? Maybe a cute fan blew him a kiss during batting practice? We need to get to the bottom of this.
    I believe he finally got a quality martinizing on his designer jeans.
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    Re: Votto: where's his head lately?

    Strrrugglinggg

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