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Thread: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

  1. #271
    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    This seems to be another case of Redszone forgetting that it is no longer 2000-2009, and the primary goal of the Cincinnati Reds baseball club is winning games, not developing prospects.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

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  4. #272
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    This seems to be another case of Redszone forgetting that it is no longer 2000-2009, and the primary goal of the Cincinnati Reds baseball club is winning games, not developing prospects.
    The primary goal should be two-fold. Winning games this year AND looking forward so you can continue to win in the following years. Good clubs do both. They don't operate with tunnel-vision.
    Last edited by _Sir_Charles_; 06-19-2013 at 05:23 PM.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

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    RedEye (06-19-2013)

  6. #273
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    But correlation studies have concluded, that once you get to the playoffs, the biggest factors are bullpen and defense. Having Cingrani in the pen for the playoffs is a must, IMO. It reduces the crapshoot factor (gives the Reds a better chance of winning).

    Note, I realize correlation is not the same as proof.
    I agree. And I'd have no problem if they brought up Cingrani for the playoffs or designated one of the starters in the rotation to pitch in the pen (if we go with 3 starters).

    If Tony is successful as a reliever...what's the certainty that the Reds would put him back on a starter's track? If Tony stays up here the remainder of the season in the pen...is his arm ready for that kind of work. It IS a considerable change.

    My point is that it's not as risk-free as many make it out to be. If handled properly, the risk is VERY small. But that includes a rather big IF.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  7. #274
    Member Superdude's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    But correlation studies have concluded, that once you get to the playoffs, the biggest factors are bullpen and defense.
    We don't have to call him up in June to have Cingrani in the playoff bullpen.

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    RedEye (06-19-2013)

  9. #275
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Which is even more reason to trust the Reds' current method of doing things rather than what teams like Kansas City would do.
    It's actually a reason that KC and CIN are not on comparable plans. The comparison is a faulty one IMO. Once a roster is competitive, the decisions made by a FO are different than they are when you are trying to establish winning in the first place.

  10. #276
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    We don't have to call him up in June to have Cingrani in the playoff bullpen.
    Nope sure don't.

    That's why in Chicago they rhyme June with Swoon

  11. #277
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    This seems to be another case of Redszone forgetting that it is no longer 2000-2009, and the primary goal of the Cincinnati Reds baseball club is winning games, not developing prospects.
    But those prospects that we took the time to develop properly are the only reason we're winning games. I'd like to keep winning games personally. Shoving all your chips into 2013 in a system as unpredictable as the MLB playoffs is setting yourself up for disappointment IMO.

  12. #278
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    It's actually a reason that KC and CIN are not on comparable plans. The comparison is a faulty one IMO. Once a roster is competitive, the decisions made by a FO are different than they are when you are trying to establish winning in the first place.
    ...which is the point being made. The Reds are now in a position to win now. They've separated themselves from the have-nots, and have to worry about the now rather than the later.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  13. #279
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    ...which is the point being made. The Reds are now in a position to win now. They've separated themselves from the have-nots, and have to worry about the now rather than the later.
    Except there is the now-now and the later this year. That's really the distinction being made here.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  14. #280
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    But those prospects that we took the time to develop properly are the only reason we're winning games. I'd like to keep winning games personally. Shoving all your chips into 2013 in a system as unpredictable as the MLB playoffs is setting yourself up for disappointment IMO.
    I posit that "develop properly" is largely a misnomer. Most development is probably going to come down to identifying the player's talent and commitment ahead of time. Plus, the term properly assumes there's a right way and a wrong way to bring prospects along. I don't think there's really that much black and white... mostly gray.

    The Reds are in this position because the prospects panned out. I don't know that they did anything differently other than finally found the right guys. The good organizations are the ones that can identify the players that have 'it' and have the people that can analyze the performance to maximize the wins.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    REDREAD (06-20-2013)

  16. #281
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    The good organizations are the ones that can identify the players that have 'it' and have the people that can analyze the performance to maximize the wins.
    Except for the development piece, which is gigantic.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  17. #282
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Except there is the now-now and the later this year. That's really the distinction being made here.
    When a patient comes into an emergency room with massive trauma, a doctor has to stop the bleeding before worrying surgeries and reconstruction. If you lose too much blood, the later is irrelevant.

    Regardless, I'm honestly not sure what this move does to lessen the Reds' chances of winning "later this year." How does helping the team now hurt them later? And again, if you can help them now, why wouldn't you do it lest there not be a "later?"
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  18. #283
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Except for the development piece, which is gigantic.
    Did you just skip over the rest of my post and right to the last sentence? As I already said, I think "development" is a misnomer. Either guys have it or they don't. The trick is to find the ones that do. The development will be there if the guys have the talent, commitment and savvy. Approach varies from club to club, but there isn't really a right way or wrong way to develop guys. There are a whole lot of successful strategies. At the end of the day, though, the fundamentals are the same almost wherever you go. So the trick isn't actually teaching or developing, it's find the guys you think will do it.
    Last edited by Brutus; 06-19-2013 at 06:22 PM.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  19. #284
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    When a patient comes into an emergency room with massive trauma, a doctor has to stop the bleeding before worrying surgeries and reconstruction. If you lose too much blood, the later is irrelevant.

    Regardless, I'm honestly not sure what this move does to lessen the Reds' chances of winning "later this year." How does helping the team now hurt them later? And again, if you can help them now, why wouldn't you do it lest there not be a "later?"
    Mistakes are made in trauma rooms all the time based on short-sighted, hasty decision making.

    Cingrani is the main backup plan if there is injury in the rotation. If he becomes a reliever and fails to make adjustments to his off speed pitches, he will most likely be far less effective in that role.
    Last edited by RedEye; 06-19-2013 at 06:43 PM.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  20. #285
    Member NebraskaRed's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Did you just skip over the rest of my post and right to the last sentence? As I already said, I think "development" is a misnomer. Either guys have it or they don't. The trick is to find the ones that do. The development will be there if the guys have the talent, commitment and savvy. Approach varies from club to club, but there isn't really a right way or wrong way to develop guys. There are a whole lot of successful strategies. At the end of the day, though, the fundamentals are the same almost wherever you go. So the trick isn't actually teaching or developing, it's find the guys you think will do it.
    I partially agree with you, but I think that the way you're wording this makes it seem like you're saying that management and coaching play almost no role whatsoever. If a player either has "it" or they don't, that means that no coaching will help a player develop new skills, or modify those they already have.


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