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Thread: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

  1. #301
    Member Billy Hamilton's Legs's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    The concern expressed by you and others that I have some sympathy for is that the Reds will get beguiled by him in the pen, and lose sight of how good he was as a starter too. I assume they will not, but I can't discount it. Chapman is a bit of a cautionary tale there, as Dusty clearly got comfortable with him in the closers role and there he apparently is stuck.

    Cingrani looks great out of the pen, and I expect he will continue to look great, as he has really good stuff. I already heard Welsh tonight with the "I think he really likes the pen" which helps to set narrative.

    Bottom line, Cingrani is really good at pitching, and can do both (start and relieve) well. I assume the Reds won't lose sight of the fact that he's got a chance to be a really good starter in this league while he helps the team in the short term out of the pen.

    But I do understand why the concern is being voiced by some of the posters on here.
    Exactly this. Both have similar profiles: incredible fastballs, lesser secondary stuff. They certainly look great in the pen, but their true value is in the rotation. The bullpen is for starters that aren't very good.
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  3. #302
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    Starting pitching wins championships.

    The Reds seem hellbent on moving power arms to spots where they'll provide the smallest return.
    Lots of stuff wins championships, lets try and remember all the great bullpen guys in past Reds championships besides that huge shadow casted by the awesome starters they had to follow when making such astute declarations

  4. #303
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    The argument is moot, the Reds will be lucky to keep at least two of Leake, Bailey, Latos and Cueto past 2015 and Arroyo will likely not resign. Cingrani will be slotted for the rotation by necessity as early as next April.

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  6. #304
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    All I'll say about this is that Cingrani in the bullpen puts a completely different look to the end of the game.

    And that look is one of a championship.

    Pay attention to the open sky

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  8. #305
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker View Post
    All I'll say about this is that Cingrani in the bullpen puts a completely different look to the end of the game.

    And that look is one of a championship.
    Was that because he was one of a cast that shut out the Bucs, or because they squeaked one out on a seeing-eye bouncer in the bottom of the 13th? I'm not sure what championship baseball looks like, but this sure didn't feel like a comfortable victory to me.

  9. #306
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Guess you'd prefer, "Ondrusek gave up three runs and this game is over now."
    I was joking there, mth123. Obviously, I want Cingrani to succeed when he's in the game.

  10. #307
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Honest question related to this discussion:

    Setting intangibles aside for the moment (though not discounting their importance), isn't Cingrani's profile in some sense more suited for a bullpen role at the moment than Chapman's? Both seem to thrive in short appearances where they can rear back and let fly, both are lefties with easy deliveries. However, Chapman, IIRC, has a more established set of offspeed offerings than does Cingrani right now.

    A lot of successful relievers end up making it with one dominant pitch and one other that is just good enough to keep hitters off balance. So let me ask you all this...

    Would it be insane to wonder whether the Reds might some day actually make Cingrani the closer and move Chapman to the rotation?

  11. #308
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Honest question related to this discussion:

    Setting intangibles aside for the moment (though not discounting their importance), isn't Cingrani's profile in some sense more suited for a bullpen role at the moment than Chapman's? Both seem to thrive in short appearances where they can rear back and let fly, both are lefties with easy deliveries. However, Chapman, IIRC, has a more established set of offspeed offerings than does Cingrani right now.

    A lot of successful relievers end up making it with one dominant pitch and one other that is just good enough to keep hitters off balance. So let me ask you all this...

    Would it be insane to wonder whether the Reds might some day actually make Cingrani the closer and move Chapman to the rotation?
    Funny, but I think Chapman would be a nightmare in the rotation. Probably why he only goes one inning and never two. For a short period, he's just lights out, but for seven innings? Doubtful. Cingrani regardless of pitch count, has better control, but who knows? I like what's going on now and it's difficult to imagine changes. Except in the hitting department.
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by oregonred View Post
    The argument is moot, the Reds will be lucky to keep at least two of Leake, Bailey, Latos and Cueto past 2015 and Arroyo will likely not resign. Cingrani will be slotted for the rotation by necessity as early as next April.
    New TV Contract will allow them to keep at least 2 of those and not be lucky about it. Can the "Reds are a small market team" stuff end now, especially after the Votto and Phillips contracts?

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  15. #310
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    Starting pitching wins championships.

    The Reds seem hellbent on moving power arms to spots where they'll provide the smallest return.
    Mike Flanagan
    Scott McGregor
    Orel Hershisier
    Alejandro Pena

    The Orioles and Dodgers knew something about how to maximize what they had and needed in the bullpen and it did not make them lose sight of what they could be as starters. Why can't Tony just be allowed to help the bullpen for one year......and then when Arroyo is gone ....move into the rotation the next.

  16. #311
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger View Post
    Mike Flanagan
    Scott McGregor
    Orel Hershisier
    Alejandro Pena

    The Orioles and Dodgers knew something about how to maximize what they had and needed in the bullpen and it did not make them lose sight of what they could be as starters. Why can't Tony just be allowed to help the bullpen for one year......and then when Arroyo is gone ....move into the rotation the next.
    Don't know -- been wondering that since Aroldis Chapman moved into the bullpen "temporarily" to solve a need a few seasons ago

    To the other point -- the overwhelming majority of starting pitchers never throw a bullpen inning until they can't start any longer or are needed in an emergency one time (extra inning game, playoff game). There is a reason for that, I imagine.
    Last edited by Caveat Emperor; 06-20-2013 at 01:12 AM.
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  17. #312
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    Don't know -- been wondering that since Aroldis Chapman moved into the bullpen "temporarily" to solve a need a few seasons ago

    To the other point -- the overwhelming majority of starting pitchers never throw a bullpen inning until they can't start any longer or are needed in an emergency one time (extra inning game, playoff game). There is a reason for that, I imagine.
    The Dodgers, Orioles then the Braves....and it looks like the Cardinals now....could afford to use some of their arms in the bullpen for a year (at worst) before putting them in the rotation. I would be OK if the Reds had something like this. They do have it this year and a lot of people do not know what to do...because of what happened with Chapman.

  18. #313
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Was that because he was one of a cast that shut out the Bucs, or because they squeaked one out on a seeing-eye bouncer in the bottom of the 13th? I'm not sure what championship baseball looks like, but this sure didn't feel like a comfortable victory to me.
    I didn't mean "the game" as in last night's game in the singular. I meant the games as a collective.

    He comes in with speed, stuff, and an amped-up attitude. A power arm besides Chapman makes a world of difference. I don't watch the 8th now peeking out between fingers covering my eyes.

    Pay attention to the open sky

  19. #314
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    I knew Cingrani would do well out of the 'pen.

    I just think it limits his chances of developing his secondary stuff. He's not going to use anything but fastballs to get 3 hitters out.

    In essence, it helps the Reds NOW, but stunts Cingrani's development for becoming a regular starting pitcher that needs more than 1 good pitch.
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  20. #315
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    I agree. And I'd have no problem if they brought up Cingrani for the playoffs or designated one of the starters in the rotation to pitch in the pen (if we go with 3 starters).

    If Tony is successful as a reliever...what's the certainty that the Reds would put him back on a starter's track? If Tony stays up here the remainder of the season in the pen...is his arm ready for that kind of work. It IS a considerable change.

    My point is that it's not as risk-free as many make it out to be. If handled properly, the risk is VERY small. But that includes a rather big IF.
    Now I agree with these points.
    However, I'm not worried about Cingrani being a reliever forever.
    I know folks will point to Chapman, but my speculation is that Chapman fell in love with closing, had no interest/motivation in starting, and since there was a need for him in the pen (and 5 solid starters), they left him in the pen. Leake probably also made it almost impossible to bump Leake to the bullpen as well.

    Now, there is a chance that Arroyo does stick around next year. He said he wants to come back, but said it will probably be hard for the Reds to pay him. There could be a scenerio where the Reds offer Arroyo the arbitration necessary to get a draft pick and he accepts (stuff like this has happened before)... There's also a chance that Marshall's injury is career ending (I really hope not).. so it's hard to say for sure.. but it seems Cingrani is still on the starter track.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

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