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Thread: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

  1. #316
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    We don't have to call him up in June to have Cingrani in the playoff bullpen.
    True, but we need him now. Desperately.

    This June bullpen experience can only help him refine his craft IMO.
    He can dominate minor league hitters with only a FB. He can't do that up here.
    There's more pressure for him to use secondary pitches up here, and he seems to be doing it.. Could he use them more? Probably.. But it was really sweet when he started one of those Pirate batters off with a breaking ball and the hitter totally froze with the bat on his shoulder because he was so surprised. The confidence in his secondary pitches will come faster up here, IMO.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

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  3. #317
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Quick question, and I don't think it's an easy one.

    Would you rather the Reds win the division this year and have it result in Cingrani being a reliever for his career?

    Or...

    Would you rather the Reds miss the playoffs this year but have Cingrani develop into a starting pitcher for his career?

    And would it change your answer if the second option had the Reds winning the Wild Card?

    For me, even if the second option is the Wild Card, I'm choosing option 1. But I understand why some would choose option 2.
    Give me the division this year.
    Especially this year. The Pirates are projected to be a wildcard team.
    I don't want a one game playoffs against the Pirates with their pitching.
    The Reds have a nice offense, but we'd be vulernable to getting "Leitered" in a one game playoff vs the Pirates.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  4. #318
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    I wasn't fine at first with Cingrani coming up. But I am now, IF he goes back down when Marshall comes back healthy.

    Short term I'm fine with. If Marshall is out all season, I'll revise my opinion accordingly at that point.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

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  6. #319
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    I knew Cingrani would do well out of the 'pen.

    I just think it limits his chances of developing his secondary stuff. He's not going to use anything but fastballs to get 3 hitters out.

    In essence, it helps the Reds NOW, but stunts Cingrani's development for becoming a regular starting pitcher that needs more than 1 good pitch.
    Why does it limit his development? You think the only time he's working on his pitchhing is when he pitches in a game? You think Bronson couldn't teach him how to throw a curve while he's throwing on the side? Or Price can't teach him a thing or two?

    You seem to have the opinion that once a player reaches the majors that his development is done.
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  8. #320
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    So, this debate seems to center around "developing secondary pitches," which to me begs the question of the proper time and place and venue for "developing secondary pitches," not to mention that "developing secondary pitches" is not something that someone just does by going through "secondary pitches" certification. Don't forget that Cingrani is right now chucking up the old number 1 at a high rate, whether starting or in the bullpen, in his stints with the Reds. I'm still trying to figure out why it is allegedly "stunting" his development by getting major league hitters out primarily with fastballs? For example, Lance Lynn is throwing up 80% FBs, seems to have had a pretty good run of success. The proverb "the best pitch in baseball is a well placed fastball" perhaps applies here for Cingrani? The Pirates hitters clearly had no chance on those knee high, cornered fastballs he was chucking up there last night.

    And for those so concerned about going through "secondary pitches development," how do you rate his secondary pitches? Or is it just what you have been told he needs to do?
    Last edited by traderumor; 06-20-2013 at 10:43 AM.
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  10. #321
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    Why does it limit his development? You think the only time he's working on his pitchhing is when he pitches in a game? You think Bronson couldn't teach him how to throw a curve while he's throwing on the side? Or Price can't teach him a thing or two?

    You seem to have the opinion that once a player reaches the majors that his development is done.
    It's like when you take that action figure out of the package and use it to hammer a nail.

    Not only are you using it wrong but you've rendered it useless and compromised its existence

  11. #322
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    It's like when you take that action figure out of the package and use it to hammer a nail.

    Not only are you using it wrong but you've rendered it useless and compromised its existence
    I'm not sure I follow you here. I would agree with Chip that quite a bit of development is continuing at the major league level. As has been accepted as axiom, MLB is an ongoing cat and mouse game of adjustments, which requires guys to continue developing in the midst of their major league careers. Are you saying using a talented player in a certain role today will keep him from being useful in a completely different role going forward?
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    You develop secondary pitches by throwing them. This happens in:

    • side sessions
    • warming up to enter games
    • in games.

    Starters get a lot more opportunity to get these reps. They have side sessions between starts. No such thing for relievers. They get more time to throw before entering a game, and throw more pitches to warm up. They throw more in games. It's not hard to understand.

    Problem is that some folks, when they debate, refuse to cede a single inch of ground to the other side, even when it's blatantly clear the other side has a valid point. IMO, it's obvious that Cingrani won't be getting the reps of his secondary stuff that he would have had in a starter's role, and this will slow his ability to reach his potential in that area. It doesn't mean he won't reach that potential, just that it will extend the process.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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  14. #324
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    I'm not sure I follow you here. I would agree with Chip that quite a bit of development is continuing at the major league level. As has been accepted as axiom, MLB is an ongoing cat and mouse game of adjustments, which requires guys to continue developing in the midst of their major league careers. Are you saying using a talented player in a certain role today will keep him from being useful in a completely different role going forward?
    I'm not.

    But that seems to be the vibe I'm getting from some

  15. #325
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    You develop secondary pitches by throwing them. This happens in:

    • side sessions
    • warming up to enter games
    • in games.

    Starters get a lot more opportunity to get these reps. They have side sessions between starts. No such thing for relievers. They get more time to throw before entering a game, and throw more pitches to warm up. They throw more in games. It's not hard to understand.

    Problem is that some folks, when they debate, refuse to cede a single inch of ground to the other side, even when it's blatantly clear the other side has a valid point. IMO, it's obvious that Cingrani won't be getting the reps of his secondary stuff that he would have had in a starter's role, and this will slow his ability to reach his potential in that area. It doesn't mean he won't reach that potential, just that it will extend the process.
    It might slow his development, it might not. He's getting to pitch in some high leverage spots in the middle of a very hot race for the division on the team with the 2nd best record in baseball. So, this isn't a waste, and it's not a great concern. We're lucky to have him now when injuries have taken their toll. Eventually, if you have too much talent, it's a good thing right? You have to win today, and worrying about tomorrow isn't that important this year.

  16. #326
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    My greater fear is Cingrani being jerked back and forth in roles and location. Louisville, Cincinnati. He's going to get lost and step in front of a bus because of his confusion, ending a once promising career.

    I'm fine with him in the bullpen, so long as I never see Ondrusek wearing a Reds uni again this year.
    Suck it up cupcake.

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  18. #327
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by mdccclxix View Post
    You have to win today, and worrying about tomorrow isn't that important this year.
    Next year is always important. The best franchises strike a balance between now and later.
    "I’ll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. That’s just how I do things.” -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    It might slow his development, it might not. He's getting to pitch in some high leverage spots in the middle of a very hot race for the division on the team with the 2nd best record in baseball.
    It will slow his development in terms of polishing his secondary stuff. How much remains to be seen -- and we'll never know for sure. Pitching in high leverage situations in a pennant race will help him in other ways, yes, and that will be good for his growth as a pitcher. But the secondary stuff issue still pertains.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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  21. #329
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    My position is that Cingrani is good enough to be a major league pitcher today. Currently, his best fit is as a power lefty at the back end of the pen due to injuries. The rotation currently does not have a place for him due to health and performance.

    When he was sent out to AAA, it was communicated publicly by the Reds that this decision was based on "developing secondary pitches." Since it was the public declaration, this writer takes it with a grain of salt. I believe the real answer was that they were trying to avoid a stint in the bullpen and the rotation was full and performing, so he's the odd man out, so we can say "yea, he needs to work on his secondary pitches, better in Louisville than here" to appease those who care about such declarations.

    Now, there is a need in the bullpen, so while they were trying to avoid this, it is the best option to try to solidify a shaky pen. It is hopefully a short term solution, but may remain necessary to win MLB games.

    After all, when it comes to "developing secondary pitches," that can be done in a variety of ways other than in the middle of a minor league season, e.g. offseason, winter ball, spring training.
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  23. #330
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    It's like when you take that action figure out of the package and use it to hammer a nail.

    Not only are you using it wrong but you've rendered it useless and compromised its existence
    Or you throw the action figure in a jar of gasoline and then light it on fire and watch it melt.

    Nice images these. Not real applicable to the matter we are discussing though.
    "I’ll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. That’s just how I do things.” -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013


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