Cueto up, Cingrani stays for now

[Blitz Dorsey]

Apparently you consider "throwing his secondary pitches against live competition" a waste.

I don't.

This guy is supposed to be the answer in 2014 that lets the Reds jettison Arroyo (and his contract) to free up money to sign other players long term. He's also the only thing stopping you from seeing the Pedro Villareal show for multiple appearances the next time Johnny Cueto's side starts barking again.

He learns nothing and develops little by being a LOOGY or going 1 inning every few nights where he does nothing but pump fastball in to opposing hitters.

Even MLB batters can't hit him consistently. He can work on his secondary pitches between games with Price and his staff. He can also work on them during games. During his last start, I noticed him throwing more breaking pitches. And he was throwing them well. Let's not count the side sessions with Bryan Price short. I think he's one of the best in the game. I would much rather have Cingrani pitching for the Reds (whose record I care about) than pitching for Louisville (whose record I don't). It would be different if we were talking about a guy like Billy Hamilton who I absolutely think still needs to be in AAA right now. He's not ready for The Show. Conversely, Cingrani is beyond ready. What does he have to do to prove to you that he is? His numbers are stellar. Just because he needs to improve at some things doesn't mean he's not ready for MLB. The Reds need him and I'm glad Walt made this decision. Sounds like he'll be more than just a LOOGY.

[lollipopcurve]

Keep in mind that relievers get hurt more than starters.

Masset is history, probably. As is Bray. Marshall's shoulder is barking. Broxton's elbow is bad, again. Ondrusek has a lot less velo than he did 2 years ago. Conversely, the Reds starters have been very healthy lately.

I feel much better about Cingrani as a starter than as a reliever. To say that they run no risk here is obstinate. They are. It's not best for the kid's development, IMO, but naturally short-term concerns are very important, too.

We all hope it works out.

[Kc61]

Keep in mind that relievers get hurt more than starters.

Masset is history, probably. As is Bray. Marshall's shoulder is barking. Broxton's elbow is bad, again. Ondrusek has a lot less velo than he did 2 years ago. Conversely, the Reds starters have been very healthy lately.

I feel much better about Cingrani as a starter than as a reliever. To say that they run no risk here is obstinate. They are. It's not best for the kid's development, IMO, but naturally short-term concerns are very important, too.

We all hope it works out.

I think relievers get hurt more because of the abuse of relieving. Constant warmups; constant leveraged situations; frequent appearances.

I often wonder why people think innings pitched is the key to injury risk, when number of appearances and warmups probably cause more wear and tear for some pitchers.

But it can be controlled. I'm far less concerned with Cingrani's role as a reliever per se. It's how he is used that is the key. Dusty seems sensitive to the issue, so hopefully he'll use him for longer outings and give him plenty of rest.

BTW the Bucs have a bunch of lefties in the lineup tonight, so we may learn more this very evening.

[westofyou]

You don't learn to be a starter by being a reliever -- especially when your #1 "issue" is lack of a consistent secondary pitch.

Learn to be a pitcher and then you can master any role.

Been going down in the game for over a century.

[Caveat Emperor]

Learn to be a pitcher and then you can master any role.

Been going down in the game for over a century.

You don't become a better chef by bussing tables all night.

[westofyou]

You don't become a better chef by bussing tables all night.

Don Gullet says hey

[NebraskaRed]

You don't become a better chef by bussing tables all night.

But that analogy doesn't work. The busser doesn't ever prepare food. The reliever actually throws pitches to real batters from the opposing team. That's closer to being a sous chef than a busser.

[redssince75]

You don't become a better chef by bussing tables all night.

But you do become a better chef by practicing cooking as much as you can....even if it's less per day than you will end up doing.

What does a busboy have to do with it? Goes in the "horrible analogy" file.

[lollipopcurve]

Note that Baker described Cingrani as a "power arm" in the pen. When he was starting, the emphasis was on him developing his secondary stuff. My guess is that Cingrani will be pitching differently as a reliever than he was as a starter.

My main concern is workload/routine/rest. The preparation of a starter is nothing like how relievers prepare. Cingrani is going from running the mile to running the 100.

[Brutus]

You don't become a better chef by bussing tables all night.

You learn to pitch by pitching. There's no difference whether you're doing it in the first five innings or three innings later. Some relievers can't work as starters because they only have two quality pitches, so they can get away with fastball/changeup combinatinos more late in the game in a small sample than over the course of 6-8 innings. But that's not to say good pitchers can't be effective in the bullpen in reverse. If you know how to pitch, it doesn't really matter what inning you're learning on the job.

[Caveat Emperor]

But you do become a better chef by practicing cooking as much as you can....even if it's less per day than you will end up doing.

What does a busboy have to do with it? Goes in the "horrible analogy" file.

Different skillsets.

Pitching relief is all about maximum effort over a short period of time -- you throw your best pitch, you throw it hard, and you don't worry about working through the lineup multiple times.

If the goal is to become a more complete pitcher -- command multiple pitches in the zone -- pitching relief does nothing to further it.

[redssince75]

Different skillsets.

Pitching relief is all about maximum effort over a short period of time -- you throw your best pitch, you throw it hard, and you don't worry about working through the lineup multiple times.

If the goal is to become a more complete pitcher -- command multiple pitches in the zone -- pitching relief does nothing to further it.

No, I couldn't agree with that less. Brutus said it succinctly.

You learn to pitch by pitching. There's no difference whether you're doing it in the first five innings or three innings later.

[westofyou]

Different skillsets.

Pitching relief is all about maximum effort over a short period of time -- you throw your best pitch, you throw it hard, and you don't worry about working through the lineup multiple times.

If the goal is to become a more complete pitcher -- command multiple pitches in the zone -- pitching relief does nothing to further it.

Throw ball, limit batters opportunity use your best weapons.

Make outs, out of batters.

Good pitchers can do it

Bad can't

[westofyou]

If the goal is to become a more complete pitcher -- command multiple pitches in the zone -- pitching relief does nothing to further it.

The goal is to maximize the teams chances to win with current assets, as you say

Flags fly forever

[Norm Chortleton]

"In the organizations I've been in, this is probably the best kind of role to be in as a young player," Baker said. "We started [Rick] Sutcliffe, Bobby Welch, and we started [Dave Stewart in the bullpen] with the Dodgers. Nolan Ryan started out in the bullpen. Pedro Martinez and his brother [Ramon] both started out in lesser [roles]."