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Thread: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2002

    Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    This may sound quaint and distant, but in 1999 the Reds had three relievers with IPs straight off of a 1973 baseball card:

    Williamson: 62 games, 93 innings
    Graves: 75 games, 111 innings
    Sullivan: 79 games, 114 innings

    With Simonís successful 3-inning save today, my hope is that Dusty returns to more Jack McKeon-eque bullpen usage patterns in the coming days/weeks. That means more multiple-inning relief appearances, fewer relievers warming up each game, and fewer in-game pitching changes.

    Itís a bit strange how itís come to this point. The Reds' starters have been outstanding, consistently going 6-7 innings per game. The Reds have one of the best closers pitching the 9th inning of virtually every close game. That leaves 1-2 innings per game that need to be pitched, on average, by six other members of the bullpen. So why are the Reds experiencing so much fatigue and churn in the relief corps?

    Obviously, injuries to Marshall and now Broxton have shifted the roles of others in the bullpen. That sucks. And several extra-inning games have compounded the problems.

    But I suspect that a more optimal use of the bullpen could be employed. Most of the time when one of the middle relievers runs into trouble, the Reds order both a lefty and righty reliever to warm up in the bullpen. This strikes me as wasteful; the tactical advantage of using a lefty instead of a righty against a tough LH batter is more than cancelled out by the qualitative performances of, say, Manny Parra and Sam LeCure.

    Here is one guy's proposed decision rules on how the bullpen should be used in the near future, assuming that Chapman will continue to pitch according to Dustyís rules:

    *Close games, where starter lasts 6/7 innings: LeCure or Simon pitches innings 7 & 8. Chapman pitches 9th.
    *Close games, where starter lasts less than 6 innings: Hoover as a bridge to LeCure/Simon, Chapman pitches 9th.
    *Laughers, where Redsí starter lasts less than 6 innings: Have at it with back end of the bullpen (Parra, Partch, Villarreal, etc. )
    *Blowouts, where Reds starter lasts 6+ innings: Hoover, Partch going 2 innings. Return to Chapman if game tightens up, otherwise back end of the bullpen closes.
    *Extra-inning attrition games: LeCure or Simon pitches innings 7 & 8. Chapman pitches 9th. Hoover pitches 10 & 11, and then go to the freshest back-end arm from there.

    The general decision rules would be: use your best relievers in tight games, use your best relievers for 1-2 inning durations, only 1 reliever warming up (except in rare circumstances), and avoid the back end of the bullpen except in blowouts or extra-inning games of attrition. Some of this will be context-driver, of course. Double-switching, recent usage, etc., should make these rules somewhat malleable.


    BillDoran (06-17-2013),Donder (06-17-2013),dubc47834 (06-17-2013),Hubba (06-17-2013),Kc61 (06-17-2013),mdccclxix (06-17-2013),_Sir_Charles_ (06-17-2013)

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  4. #2
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006

    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    McKeon is 83 years old.

    There is a better chance Ted Kluzewski will come back to be hitting coach.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  5. #3
    Bullpen or whatever RedEye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Atlanta, GA

    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Sounds good to me!

  6. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2001

    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    The idea of using set up men for two innings is worth very serious consideration. DMan with very fine post.

    The pattern of resting pitchers would have to change. After a two inning stint more rest would be required.

    Still, the recent Partch and Simon outings show how these can be effective relief stints. Used to see more of this years ago. Not so much today.


    RedEye (06-17-2013)

  8. #5
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005

    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Best case scenario I hope today's game maybe was an eye-opener.

    You get these games where the Win Probability is 95 percent or so going into the 7th inning. (For example - today after the bottom of the 6th was over with the Reds up 5-1, the WP was 94.9%) When that happens either way, winning or losing, I'd look to turn to a long reliever (not one of my elite guys) and try to let him finish it out. Not all the time, but some of the time. Save a starters arm for a few innings. If you are losing, sacrifice a bullpen arm to give you a better chance tomorrow.

    I wouldn't be rigid in how I did this, but like I said, when a game is pretty much at hand, I'd sometimes shift managing strategies in a big way...so long as the personnel matched up.

  9. #6
    Member WVRedsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Rainelle, WV

    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    I can't believe I'm saying this, but...the Reds are 14 games over .500 and are barely staying in 2nd place, but I can't see the result being any better no matter who manages. Yes, Dusty drive me crazy on his batting orders and how he uses pitchers in general, but in watching a lot of games, most do the things he does and maybe worse. The secret has been and always be talent. This year, those that performed last year are not or hurt or just not doing it. There are idiots like Jerry Narron or Bob Boone, but it's the talent most often.

    And as I say that, Heisey will be back and a more usable player will go down and Baker will play him every other day. See why I'm torn?
    "You only have to bat a thousand in two things; flying and heart transplants. Everything else you can go 4-for-5."
    -Beano Cook

  10. #7
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000

    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    I'd love some 2 IP work from guys, especially if they can generate the results those guys did in 1999

    Sully and Graves were machines that year, they both faced over 450 batters, Graves did better than 2 IP 24 times, 5 times achieving 3 IP, Sully also topped 2 IP 24 times, 7 of those 3 or better and 1 4 inning appearance. He had 5 straight years of 400 batters faced as a Red. The best a Reds pitcher Has done since Sully left is 365 BF by John Rielding in 2004. The high last year was Chapman with 276 BF. The all time high for a Reds reliever was Wayne Granger in 1969 (90 games)

    The game does change just look at the BP distribution the past 12 years

    BATTERS FACED                   BFP      IP        G     SO/9 IP   BR/9 IP     GS     
    1    Scott Sullivan              470    113.2       79     6.18    11.32        0   
    2    Danny Graves                454    111         75     5.59    11.43        0   
    3    Scott Williamson            366     93.1       62    10.32     9.45        0   
    4    Dennys Reyes                277     61.2       65    10.51    13.86        1   
    5    Gabe White                  261     61         50     9.00    12.39        0   
    6    Stan Belinda                185     42.2       29     8.44    12.87        0   
    7    Rick Greene                  25      5.2        1     4.76    12.71        0   
    T8   John Hudek                    9      1          2     0.00    63.00        0   
    T8   B.J. Ryan                     9      2          1     4.50    22.50        0   
    BATTERS FACED                   BFP      IP        G     SO/9 IP   BR/9 IP     GS     
    1    Aroldis Chapman             276     71.2       68    15.32     7.79        0   
    2    Alfredo Simon               269     61         36     7.67    13.72        0   
    3    Jose Arredondo              263     61         66     9.15    12.54        0   
    4    Sean Marshall               256     61         73    10.92    10.92        0   
    5    Logan Ondrusek              243     54.2       63     6.42    13.99        0   
    6    Sam LeCure                  237     57.1       48     9.58    10.99        0   
    7    J.J. Hoover                 123     30.2       28     9.10     8.80        0   
    8    Jonathan Broxton             87     22.1       25     8.06     9.67        0   
    9    Bill Bray                    43      8.2       14     7.27    20.77        0   
    T10  Tony Cingrani                22      5          3    16.20    10.80        0   
    T10  Todd Redmond                 22      3.1        1     5.40    32.40        1   
    12   Pedro Villarreal              3      1          1     9.00     0.00        0

  11. #8
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009

    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    My oh my. Alot of people now changing their tune.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  12. #9
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006

    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Williamson, Graves and Sullivan were all pretty much useless or out of baseball by their early 30s. Maybe that usage pattern isn't optimal?


    Cursh14 (06-17-2013),LoganBuck (06-17-2013),PuffyPig (06-17-2013),reds44 (06-17-2013)

  14. #10
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    On Assignment: Kansas City

    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Drop one of the outfielders add an arm
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  15. #11
    Did we just become BFF's dubc47834's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Terre Haute, In

    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    My oh my. Alot of people now changing their tune.
    What people? What was their tune before?

  16. #12
    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003

    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Can we please stop the bullpen usage/multiple innings theme around Reds baseball? It really sounds like those people who the team to bunt more, or want the pitchers to throw complete games like Bob Gibson used to. The Reds are paying 3 setup men big bucks, all of them are on the DL, when they are/were healthy they were above average to elite guys. Broxton and Marshall will be back, and who knows if Masset ever throws another pitch in the league.

    Masset was used to throw multiple innings, or pitch multiple days in a row. We have not seen him since 2011. Think about it a little bit. These aren't guys that throw 89 mph.
    Hugs, smiling, and interactive Twitter accounts, don't mean winning baseball. Until this community understands that we are cursed to relive the madness.


    Always Red (06-17-2013),HeatherC1212 (06-17-2013)

  18. #13
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Houston, Texas

    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Outside of bringing in McKeon...I like the idea. I doubt it happens though.

  19. #14
    Moderator cumberlandreds's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Sterling VA

    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Bringing back McKeon is one the more insane ideas I have seen on Redzone. Lets just bring back Sparky while we are it.
    Reds Fan Since 1971


    jimbo (06-17-2013)

  21. #15
    High five! nate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Irvine, CA

    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    My oh my. Alot of people now changing their tune.
    Who is changing their tune?
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

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