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Thread: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

  1. #16
    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Williamson, Graves and Sullivan were all pretty much useless or out of baseball by their early 30s. Maybe that usage pattern isn't optimal?
    You can say the same thing about a high percentage of Major League relievers. I doubt this type of usage pattern had anymore to do with it then other factors.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

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  3. #17
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    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Williamson, Graves and Sullivan were all pretty much useless or out of baseball by their early 30s. Maybe that usage pattern isn't optimal?
    Several thoughts
    .....Williamson was always an injury problem. Graves went through the closer/starter/closer flip flop that got him out of whack. I'm not sure why Sullivan ever quit. He was effective till the end.

    These guys essentially all had 10 year long careers. That's plenty of pension time.

    Even in 1999 McKeon's usage patterns were seen as from another time. The idea behind greater relief pitcher specialization is that it keeps your good guys healthy longer. It's been a long process. The cost of course is that your "Bruce Sutter" pitcher isn't always in there during the most important at bat. It's not just Dusty, that does it.

    I think teams have an obligation to protect the arms of young starters. Yes, you might be able to wring 3 more wins out of your season by pitching Strasburg more, but the very real risk is that if everybody does that then you run the real risk that generation of starting pitchers will flame out. While I do see that obligation, I'm not convinced that it is in the teams best interest to try and preserve the arm of every journeyman reliever that comes down the pike. If we would get 5 years of Sullivan/Williamson/Graves out of Simon/Hoover/LeCure but it meant they topped out at a 10 year career, then I think that's a trade that most reds fans, the reds organizaton and probably Simon/Hoover and LeCure would all make.
    Last edited by dfs; 06-17-2013 at 09:48 AM.
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

  4. #18
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    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Sully was an anomaly, a real gem. He hung his arm out there 1960's/70's style.

    Code:
    INNINGS PITCHED >= 100
    GAMES STARTED < 1
    
    
    T1   Ron Perranoski            7   
    T1   Rollie Fingers            7   
    T1   Kent Tekulve              7   
    T4   Gene Garber               6   
    T4   Hoyt Wilhelm              6   
    T4   Sparky Lyle               6   
    T7   Bruce Sutter              5   
    T7   Mike Marshall             5   
    T7   Dan Quisenberry           5   
    T7   Bill Campbell             5   
    T7   Duane Ward                5   
    T7   Gary Lavelle              5   
    T7   Dale Murray               5   
    T14  Jack Baldschun            4   
    T14  Bob Stanley               4   
    T14  Goose Gossage             4   
    T14  Greg Harris               4   
    T14  Dick Radatz               4   
    T14  Scott Sullivan            4   
    T14  Pedro Borbon              4   
    T14  Stu Miller                4

  5. #19
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    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Williamson, Graves and Sullivan were all pretty much useless or out of baseball by their early 30s. Maybe that usage pattern isn't optimal?
    Does that really matter for a mid-market size team that is well managed. Get the best 6-8 years out of your personnel and let bigger market teams overpay down the road for arms on the backend of their career.

    I like the idea of the original post on the pen usage pattern.

  6. #20
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    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by dfs View Post
    Several thoughts
    .....Williamson was always an injury problem. Graves went through the closer/starter/closer flip flop that got him out of whack. I'm not sure why Sullivan ever quit. He was effective till the end.

    These guys essentially all had 10 year long careers. That's plenty of pension time.

    Even in 1999 McKeon's usage patterns were seen as from another time. The idea behind greater relief pitcher specialization is that it keeps your good guys healthy longer. It's been a long process. The cost of course is that your "Bruce Sutter" pitcher isn't always in there during the most important at bat. It's not just Dusty, that does it.
    Scott Sullivan was a rubber arm for 6 years with the Reds. 5 of those topping 90 innings pitched out of the pen and 4 topping 100. He was out of the game by the time he was 33 which is kinda shocking. But if you look at the innings load over the course of those 6 years that may be why.

    Graves was a guy who I thought was "linked" to PED's. His arm was messed with by flipping him from starter to closer to starter to closer etc. He had a much longer career than I originally thought. Williamson was a guy who you could look at and say arm injury. When healthy that guy was good, really good.

    The idea to set a pen up how your theoretically going to use it sounds good. But what happens when a pitcher needs a day off, or is sore, or is going through an ineffective stretch? Bullpens are difficult to manage and volatile from year to year. Any idea of setting a bullpen rotation is going to get blown out of the water shortly after opening day.

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    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by oregonred View Post
    Does that really matter for a mid-market size team that is well managed. Get the best 6-8 years out of your personnel and let bigger market teams overpay down the road for arms on the backend of their career.

    I like the idea of the original post on the pen usage pattern.
    The question of optimal bullpen usage presents an interesting situation where the player's interests and the team's interests are not fully aligned and arguably in conflict with one another. I raised this issue with respect to Chapman - when he was being considered as a starter, some were saying that his innings would need to be limited. And that's probably true, if the team is concerned with maximizing the chances that Chapman will be healthy over the next few years. But if you assume (that which I think is reasonable to assume) that Chapman is not likely to be a Red after next year, then how much importance should the Reds place on the long-term health of his arm. And doesn't the view that he will soon be gone suggest pitching him in all kids of two inning spots and whenever his services might be useful? And does the team have any moral/ethical obligation to set aside the team's best interests to protect the health of the player, even one that might not be around over the long-term? Interesting issue.

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  9. #22
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    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by dubc47834 View Post
    What people? What was their tune before?
    Piano Man

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    McKeon is 83 years old.

    There is a better chance Ted Kluzewski will come back to be hitting coach.
    Can we bring back Lou Pinella for the managing of arguments with the umpires?

  10. #23
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by klw View Post
    Piano Man



    Can we bring back Lou Pinella for the managing of arguments with the umpires?
    Looking back I think I jumped the gun in thinking the OP literally wanted McKeon back in the dugout when after I actually read the post I don't think he did, he just was kinda using his name in jest sort of.

    I guess I should actually make it a point to read posts before I respond to them.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  11. #24
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    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    Looking back I think I jumped the gun in thinking the OP literally wanted McKeon back in the dugout when after I actually read the post I don't think he did, he just was kinda using his name in jest sort of.

    I guess I should actually make it a point to read posts before I respond to them.
    The OP's post is actually well stated and interesting though the thread title is a little over the top.

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    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Heck, I'm all for bringing either Mckeon OR Pinella to manage the Bullpen, the after-game food or even the Dustball himself. And before someone rolls out that old and tired argument that Dustball has seen a lot of baseball, I'd say Jack can top him there. Rem
    "For Reds fans, by Reds fans" Learn it, love it, live it.

  13. #26
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    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by klw View Post
    The OP's post is actually well stated and interesting though the thread title is a little over the top.
    It's all about marketing to drum up the post count and click throughs. Personally, I loved the title and the original post was a well thought out one.

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  15. #27
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    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by muethibp View Post
    And does the team have any moral/ethical obligation to set aside the team's best interests to protect the health of the player, even one that might not be around over the long-term? Interesting issue.
    Exactly where I was going with the post. A RB in the NFL would have a longer career in a RBBC situation rather than a featured back. However they would cash in for more $$$ in a shorter 5-6 year career than a decent journeyman with a longer 8-10 year career (the Law Firm as a good example). Same with the relievers, pumping the stats for a few years would likely yield a bigger payday.

    To be argued if multiple innings, fewer times a week might actually prolong a career. In the case of Chapman, the Reds should maximize the asset they have (within reason) as with 99% certainty he won't be a Red past his FA window.

  16. #28
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    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Not to continue the focus on the creative thread title, but it was only 2 years ago McKeon managed the Marlins for 90 games. Obviously he wouldn't come back to "manage the bullpen" for the Reds, but let's not act as though the mere thought of Trader Jack resurfacing again in a baseball uniform is 100% out of the question.
    "Since I've been with the Reds in 1989, we've never had a farm system this loaded," Bowden said. "If we were the New York Yankees and had unlimited dollars, we could have traded for Colon, (Jeff) Weaver, Rolen, (Cliff) Floyd, (Kenny) Rogers and Finley and gotten them all -- and still held onto our top five prospects. That's an amazing statement."

  17. #29
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Bring back Jack McKeon to Manage the Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    Not to continue the focus on the creative thread title, but it was only 2 years ago McKeon managed the Marlins for 90 games. Obviously he wouldn't come back to "manage the bullpen" for the Reds, but let's not act as though the mere thought of Trader Jack resurfacing again in a baseball uniform is 100% out of the question.
    McKeon had heart surgery a couple weeks ago. I think seeing an 82 year old with heart issues resurfacing in a uniform would kinda be outta the norm.

    But ya never know....

    http://www.foxsportsflorida.com/mlb/...85&feedID=3720
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  18. #30
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    McKeon had heart surgery a couple weeks ago. I think seeing an 82 year old with heart issues resurfacing in a uniform would kinda be outta the norm.

    But ya never know....

    http://www.foxsportsflorida.com/mlb/...85&feedID=3720
    Yeah, not sure a heart patient of any age should be the one to manage a pen like this one! :-0
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013


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