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Thread: The Burying of Devin Mesoraco

  1. #286
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    Re: The Burying of Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by puca View Post
    For the record, baseball reference has Hanigan catching Leake 19 games for 107 innings in their careers. Now do I think that proves anything? No, I do not. There is little doubt in my mind that Mike Leake has improved as a pitcher in the past year.
    Yeah, he pitched 14 games with Hanigan in 2011.

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  3. #287
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    Re: The Burying of Devin Mesoraco

    So Leake pitches better -- does really well and we are supposed to ignore that and give all the credit to Leake -whereas another pitcher pitches well and it's because Hannigan caught him. That just seems a little biased. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

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    Re: The Burying of Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    So Leake pitches better -- does really well and we are supposed to ignore that and give all the credit to Leake -whereas another pitcher pitches well and it's because Hannigan caught him. That just seems a little biased. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.
    No, it's because in order to be fair you take the same pitcher in the same year and compare catchers that rotate catching them. Hanigan has not caught Leake in pretty much 2 years. I am not giving Hanigan credit for Cueto. Why? Because Mesoraco does not catch Cueto. I am being more than fair.

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    Re: The Burying of Devin Mesoraco

    I missed that re: cueto.

    I still believe Mesoraco is the way to go -his offense periphrals point toward some bad luck and i think he could be .800 OPS guy. They need a bat.

  7. #290
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    Re: The Burying of Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    I missed that re: cueto.

    I still believe Mesoraco is the way to go -his offense periphrals point toward some bad luck and i think he could be .800 OPS guy. They need a bat.
    Hanigan has been way more unlucky. His BABIP is .191. Mesoraco's other stats say he should be a better hitter, but not enough to make up for his defense vs. Hanigan. If Hanigan gets anywhere near his normal offensive stats, Mesoraco would need to OPS .850+ IMO.

    On top of that, it doesn't matter if you save a run or create a run. A run is a run. Winning 4-3 is just as good as winning 2-1. Catching is not something other good fielders can compensate for.

    For the record, maybe Mesoraco will be a better catcher and fairly soon. Yet in the middle of a penant race you can't play players based on hope. If Mesoraco starts hitting well with the playing time he is given (more than ample, honestly), then he will get more playing time. Yet he should not get more playing time based on hope.
    Last edited by scott91575; 06-30-2013 at 12:02 PM.

  8. #291
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    Re: The Burying of Devin Mesoraco

    I noticed Hannigan's babip - you may very well be right......in fact, at this point- you are right.

    My hope -and it is hope- it that DM hits at an .850 clip and helps the offense take off.

    I'm saying this based on them not having a chance unless he does so. I hope i am wrong

  9. #292
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: The Burying of Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by scott91575 View Post
    Hanigan has been way more unlucky. His BABIP is .191. Mesoraco's other stats say he should be a better hitter, but not enough to make up for his defense vs. Hanigan. If Hanigan gets anywhere near his normal offensive stats, Mesoraco would need to OPS .850+ IMO.

    On top of that, it doesn't matter if you save a run or create a run. A run is a run. Winning 4-3 is just as good as winning 2-1. Catching is not something other good fielders can compensate for.

    For the record, maybe Mesoraco will be a better catcher and fairly soon. Yet in the middle of a penant race you can't play players based on hope. If Mesoraco starts hitting well with the playing time he is given (more than ample, honestly), then he will get more playing time. Yet he should not get more playing time based on hope.
    The "we are in a pennant stretch/we are contending" argument is often played.

    Well, at what point in a pennant stretch do you look at Hanigan's bat and say enough is enough?

  10. #293
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: The Burying of Devin Mesoraco

    Hanigan doesn't seem to hit balls hard that often anymore. I expect his BABIP to improve, but not to the extent many of you seem to think.

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    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: The Burying of Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Hanigan doesn't seem to hit balls hard that often anymore. I expect his BABIP to improve, but not to the extent many of you seem to think.
    But wait, BABIP doesn't account for how hard a player hits a ball. (Which is why BABIP is a good stat, but a flawed one.)

    PS: I completely agree with you. Just being semi-sarcastic. I've actually had debates with fans who say it really doesn't matter how hard a ball is hit. Said fans use BABIP as pure gospel. While it's true sometimes that it doesn't matter how hard a ball is hit -- we do see plenty of bloopers fall in for base hits --overall I have no doubt there's a higher percentage of getting a hit the harder you hit the ball. Especially when you have official scorers out there who award "hits" many times when it should be an error just because the ball was hit really hard. Never mind it was hit one step to the side of the second baseman and he should have made the play, "the ball was hit really hard." We see it all the time. Like that joke of an official scorer in Arizona who awarded a hit instead of an error on Votto in the game where Chapman blew the save.

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    Re: The Burying of Devin Mesoraco

    2 late game winning HR's now...not bad.

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  14. #296
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    Re: The Burying of Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    There are going to be growing pains with Mes. But his ceiling is fairly high. I'd think he's exactly the kind of young catcher people would want to see the team develop.
    If two players are roughly equal, you always play the younger guy with more of a chance to improve and develop.

    Hanigan should need to significantly outperform Mesoraco to get more PAs -- and he hasn't done that.
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    Re: The Burying of Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by scott91575 View Post
    How in the world can you actually bring up Mesoraco's overall ERA with the staff in one defense of him and then absolutely nitpick to refute another point that is way more accurate. Your own point refutes an original statement you made.

    If you want to say anything, just state like I did. There are way too many variables. Yet my comparison is way better than just overall staff ERA.

    BTW...Mesoraco benefits from Latos this April. Why does last year not count but this year does for him?
    1) I agreed with and appreciate your in-depth analysis of the situation at hand- I was of the mindset that catcher defense was much harder to quantify, but your analysis was very good. I conceded that in my last post- there's no need to belabor that with a statement about how wrong I am after I already stated that I was conceding the point.

    2) The reason that it is important to consider pitcher trends when looking at cERA is because cERA is an extremely misleading stat, considering that catchers aren't pitching the ball. If a pitcher is always stronger in September than he is in April, then you could have Johnny Bench catching him in April and doing poorly while Paul Bako is catching in September and doing well. It's just more information to consider in the situation.
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  17. #298
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    Re: The Burying of Devin Mesoraco

    Quote Originally Posted by DocRed View Post
    2 late game winning HR's now...not bad.
    Only one IIRC. One tied it right before Choo won it vs ATL. But I see your point.

  18. #299
    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
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    Re: The Burying of Devin Mesoraco

    The caught stealing stat is very misleading imo. So much is dependent on the pitcher's ability to shut the running game down. Cueto is like reaching into a sack of cobras, quick to the plate, great pickoff move, holds runners on. Arroyo tends to do a good job keeping an eye on the runners, but is long in his delivery. Bailey is better than he used to be but he still gets run on. Latos is slow to the plate, and has a weak pickoff move. Leake is quick to the plate, but struggles at holding runners on, and has, this season, allowed runners to take bases because he ignored them. +

    This season Latos and his catchers have caught would be runners at 40% clip 4/10 last year 15%
    Leake at 17% 1/6 (last season 43%)
    Cueto at 50% 1/2 (last season 90%)
    Bailey at 22% 2/9 (last season 30%)
    Arroyo at 50 2/4 ( last year 42%)
    Cingrani at 40% 3/5

    The turds in the punchbowl for the Reds pitching staff Broxton and Partch who have not had a baserunner thrown out attempting steals, allowing 8 stolen bases. Looks like a 5/3 split of those between Mesoraco and Hanigan respectively.

    As far as this debate. This is about a team that has trouble scoring runs at times. They have no right handed counter balance to the lineup outside of Brandon Phillips. Looking internally the one player who has in the past shown offensive effectiveness that could still come through is Devin Mesoraco. He is young, and needs time. Yes, his abilities as a backstop when it comes to blocking pitches in the dirt and pitch framing need to improve, but those things may come with experience. Arguments about caught stealing % and catchers ERA are very noisy with external influence that comes from the guys on the mound.

    I would prefer to see Mesoraco out there 4 out of every 6 games.
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

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  20. #300
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: The Burying of Devin Mesoraco

    Catching again today, 3rd game in a row, and a day game after night game.

    Can we call him "unburied" yet?


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