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Thread: Consistency at the top of the lineup

  1. #1
    Member ForeveRed's Avatar
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    Consistency at the top of the lineup

    The Reds have too many marginal offensive players on the current roster...Paul, Robinson, Cozart, etc. Each of these players have had on and off again opportunities to hit second in the batting order. This crucial spot in the order should not be handled the way Dusty has this year. He has had Cozart hitting there the majority of the season and this has been an obvious problem. He now shifts Cozart to number 7 in the order when a lefty is on the mound and puts Robinson in the lineup to hit 1st, now moving Choo to second. When there is a righty on the mound, Dusty has juggled Choo back to leadoff, Cozart to the second spot and Paul hitting #7. Where is the consistency?

    I don't believe a batting order and offensive consistency happen simply by finding the right combination. This is not a safe we are trying to crack. We need the most fundamentally sound player that fits the #2 role in the order to be there game after game. We also need a consistent philosophy for our offensive game plan, especially early in the game.

    With a starting pitching staff that typically allows the opponent 2 runs or less through the front 6 innings, moving runners into scoring position as often as possible early in the game and getting a quick lead is crucial to the overall success of this team.

    The Reds do not have a bonafide power hitter in this lineup. Bruce gets hot (see the last 7 games), Votto is not the same and Brandon was supposed to be the #2 hitter. We need to manufacture runs and the leadoff and #2 hitters in the lineup are paramount for this teams' success.

    The bottom line is this. Stick with Choo at leadoff every game. Settle on a #2 guy that can consistently move runners over and hit behind runners. Whoever the player is that fit the bill as a #2 guy must play ever day.

    My suggestion is to stick with Xavier Paul as your #2 guy. He is the best hitter among Cozart, Robinson and himself and Cozart seems to be more comfortable hitting in the 7 hole. He is also a good fastball hitter and will a higher percentage of these hitting in front of Votto.

    Its time for the musical chairs lineup to stop and create that extra run early in the game to lead to more victories.

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  3. #2
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Consistency at the top of the lineup

    The only problem with your idea is that it omits the fact that platooning works better than a single player when none of the available pieces are truly everyday players
    and all either have bad splits (the OFers)or are limited offensive players whose value is in their glove (Cozie). The biggest problem isn't doesn't Dusty being unable to key in the right combination...its not having the right pieces to key in. This is not a Dusty problem, imo, it's on Walt to get him the players. Sometimes Walt's patience drives me batty but then again...were I GM the roster would shuffle like a dog eared deck of cards...so I guess I'll just hope some kind of LF help is forthcoming. Really though...have you been watching? You really think the 2 hole is hurting this team more than the lack of another lock down bullpen arm? Most recent losses looked like implosions to me.

    Very nice first post though...did not mean to pick at ya...hope you didn't take it that way!

  4. #3
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    Re: Consistency at the top of the lineup

    Don't think Cozart should bat second, ever. Fine with some juggling.
    Sparky had 8 all-stars who played everyday. He was a genious until they traded Tony and
    Joe got hurt. Then he got fired. Funny coincidence.

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    Don Cameron (06-25-2013)

  6. #4
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    Re: Consistency at the top of the lineup

    Sparky got fired because his pitching went to hell. Trading Perez for the crap sandwich of Woodie Fryman and Dale Murray killed them. Driessen was a fine replacement, and Perez was my favorite Red.

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    Re: Consistency at the top of the lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by ForeveRed View Post
    The Reds have too many marginal offensive players on the current roster...Paul, Robinson, Cozart, etc. Each of these players have had on and off again opportunities to hit second in the batting order. This crucial spot in the order should not be handled the way Dusty has this year. He has had Cozart hitting there the majority of the season and this has been an obvious problem. He now shifts Cozart to number 7 in the order when a lefty is on the mound and puts Robinson in the lineup to hit 1st, now moving Choo to second. When there is a righty on the mound, Dusty has juggled Choo back to leadoff, Cozart to the second spot and Paul hitting #7. Where is the consistency?

    I don't believe a batting order and offensive consistency happen simply by finding the right combination. This is not a safe we are trying to crack. We need the most fundamentally sound player that fits the #2 role in the order to be there game after game. We also need a consistent philosophy for our offensive game plan, especially early in the game.

    With a starting pitching staff that typically allows the opponent 2 runs or less through the front 6 innings, moving runners into scoring position as often as possible early in the game and getting a quick lead is crucial to the overall success of this team.

    The Reds do not have a bonafide power hitter in this lineup. Bruce gets hot (see the last 7 games), Votto is not the same and Brandon was supposed to be the #2 hitter. We need to manufacture runs and the leadoff and #2 hitters in the lineup are paramount for this teams' success.

    The bottom line is this. Stick with Choo at leadoff every game. Settle on a #2 guy that can consistently move runners over and hit behind runners. Whoever the player is that fit the bill as a #2 guy must play ever day.

    My suggestion is to stick with Xavier Paul as your #2 guy. He is the best hitter among Cozart, Robinson and himself and Cozart seems to be more comfortable hitting in the 7 hole. He is also a good fastball hitter and will a higher percentage of these hitting in front of Votto.

    Its time for the musical chairs lineup to stop and create that extra run early in the game to lead to more victories.
    Stick with Choo against righties, but platoon him out against lefties.

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    Re: Consistency at the top of the lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Goose View Post
    Sparky got fired because his pitching went to hell. Trading Perez for the crap sandwich of Woodie Fryman and Dale Murray killed them. Driessen was a fine replacement, and Perez was my favorite Red.
    Well, Driessen batted .250 with 16 hrs and 70 rbi...if you call that a fine replacement we'll have to agree to disagree.

    And Bench took 40 games off, Chief missed 40 and Joe missed 30, batting .236 when he did play.

    The pitching WAS horrible...I'll give you that. but it was never the team's strength. Gullett and Nolan were the 2 best pitchers during the machine age and one or the other was almost constantly on the DL.

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    Re: Consistency at the top of the lineup

    Choo leads off vs RHP and Robinson leads off vs LHP

    My line up would be:

    Choo
    X Paul
    Votto
    Phillips
    Bruce
    Frazier
    Cozart
    Mesoraco

    This team needs a shakeup

  10. #8
    Member gfas's Avatar
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    Re: Consistency at the top of the lineup

    The batting order really makes a minimal difference. I'm talking about the difference between Robinson or Paul or even Cozart batting second. What this team needs is for Phillips and Votto to get hot again at the same time. Simple as that.

  11. #9
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    Re: Consistency at the top of the lineup

    And of course i'm only speaking on the offense.

    the pen obviously could use a healthy Marshall

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    Re: Consistency at the top of the lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by gfas View Post
    The batting order really makes a minimal difference. I'm talking about the difference between Robinson or Paul or even Cozart batting second. What this team needs is for Phillips and Votto to get hot again at the same time. Simple as that.

    I agree with this. These guys are just slumping right now and it's affecting the whole lineup. They just seem lifeless and resigned at the plate overall.

    We are looking a bit like the Pirates of the past two seasons. Hopefully they can wake up the bats.

  13. #11
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    Re: Consistency at the top of the lineup

    Disagree. With Cozart batting second, Votto leads off too many times. Cozart has a tendency when hitting that high in the lineup to making the last out of an inning too many times. It leaves runners stranded and leaves Joey in the on deck circle. I don't know where to look for this stat, but I'd love to see a comparison of the number of times Joey has led off an inning compared to the rest of the #3 hitters in the league. I would bet it is much higher than most.

  14. #12
    Member gfas's Avatar
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    Re: Consistency at the top of the lineup

    If you were to compare the times Votto leads off an inning compared to the rest of the #3 hitters in the league, the difference probably wouldn't be significant. And then to consider how many of those times you could assume that there would be men on base compared to the rest of the league just in those at bats, the difference would be even smaller. Across the course of the season, the difference is simply minimal.

    Then consider each players OBP. Paul has a .400 OBP in the 2 hole, but in only 15 PA... so he's only 1 bad game from dropping down to about .315 due to small sample size. Robinson has only a .238 OBP in the 2 spot. Cozart is at .304. Would it be nice to have a guy get on at a .415 clip in the 2 hole? Certainly, but that's not available.

    When you really break these down, the amount of hand wringing over the topic is truly not worth the impact it actually makes.

  15. #13
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    Re: Consistency at the top of the lineup

    If Votto was producing the way he is supposed to this Reds team would be so much better. He walks way too much for a guy that needs to be a run producer.

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    Re: Consistency at the top of the lineup

    Again, if I knew where to check, I would but I know it is pretty high.

    Obviously we are hand wringing out this, hence the topic was started and we started commenting on it.

    As for Votto walking, I don't like that he isn't producing as many runs, but would you prefer he swings at pitches that aren't strikes? ESPN commentators discussed this when we were on Sunday night baseball. They said later in the game that going in they had the impression that he walked too much. After watching him (granted one game, but still), they agreed that he swings at pitches that are strikes. If they aren't throwing strikes, what else can you do?

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    Re: Consistency at the top of the lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by xsteve1 View Post
    If Votto was producing the way he is supposed to this Reds team would be so much better. He walks way too much for a guy that needs to be a run producer.
    Votto might go on one of his patented tears for a month and it will skew all his numbers into a positive tone. The fact of the matter is, we are still shy of the All-star break and have a better record than last season. Considering the injuries in the pen and to Ludwick/Heisey, the struggles of Fraizer and Cozart and the recent struggles of BP, is it really fair to pin any dissatisfaction solely on Votto.
    He could have done better than pop out with the bases loaded in Oakland and Arroyo could have given up 5 fewer runs. Those same situations will certainly present themselves several more times over the course of the season.

    First place in June doesn't mean a whole lot as long as you're not 10 games out.
    I think they gotta stay positive and keep grinding it out...


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