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Thread: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

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    Re: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

    So, because a position that is stock full of talent, you have a cut off of five. Makes sense to me. Let's see from the 1920's to 1940... these first baseman played against or at the same time, and yet.... somehow they found a way to get into Cooperstown... Bottomley, Gehrig, Foxx, Greenburg, Sisler, Mize, and Terry. Now, Mize and Sisler were at the extremes, Sisler more in late teens and early twenties, and Mize in the forties.... but, ummmm five seemed ok then.

    Now, so, you are counting Palmiero, McGwire, and Giambi in this. Ok.... anything help their stats? Anything? Thome, Thomas DH, Bagwell, McGriff, Delgado.... Helton.... ?

    Welsh's comments were absolutely Romanticizing the players.... and not the numbers. He stated before the comments that the Hall of Fame chronicles, cherishes, and embraces the players and the game, it tells a story ...

    Don Cameron
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    Re: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Cameron View Post
    So, because a position that is stock full of talent, you have a cut off of five. Makes sense to me. Let's see from the 1920's to 1940... these first baseman played against or at the same time, and yet.... somehow they found a way to get into Cooperstown... Bottomley, Gehrig, Foxx, Greenburg, Sisler, Mize, and Terry. Now, Mize and Sisler were at the extremes, Sisler more in late teens and early twenties, and Mize in the forties.... but, ummmm five seemed ok then.

    Now, so, you are counting Palmiero, McGwire, and Giambi in this. Ok.... anything help their stats? Anything? Thome, Thomas DH, Bagwell, McGriff, Delgado.... Helton.... ?

    Welsh's comments were absolutely Romanticizing the players.... and not the numbers. He stated before the comments that the Hall of Fame chronicles, cherishes, and embraces the players and the game, it tells a story ...

    Don Cameron
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    Let me give you a little advice since it is very obvious you are new to message boards.


    Type your thoughts and then go back and read it again two or three times and ask your self if someone reading it for the first time would understand the point you are trying to make.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

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    MillerTime58 (07-01-2013)

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    Re: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

    Ok. In the years of baseball from 1920 to 1940, there were seven first basemen that made the hall of fame. Sisler, Bottomley, Mize, Gehrig, Foxx, Greenburg, Bill Terry. Now, the league only had sixteen teams. So, somehow someway, these players, made it into the hall of fame.

    Why should it matter if McGriff, whose numbers, are clearly hall of fame worthy, be punished because he played in an era of great first basemen? Under your premise, then I suppose what the top three or four should be eligible? Furthermore three of the players the article mentioned were guilty of PEDs, and two of them were primarily DH's. I guess what I am trying to say is, historically there is a premise to put in those players who are deserving regardless how many played the position at the same time.

    Don Cameron
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    Re: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Cameron View Post
    Ok. In the years of baseball from 1920 to 1940, there were seven first basemen that made the hall of fame. Sisler, Bottomley, Mize, Gehrig, Foxx, Greenburg, Bill Terry. Now, the league only had sixteen teams. So, somehow someway, these players, made it into the hall of fame.

    Why should it matter if McGriff, whose numbers, are clearly hall of fame worthy, be punished because he played in an era of great first basemen? Under your premise, then I suppose what the top three or four should be eligible? Furthermore three of the players the article mentioned were guilty of PEDs, and two of them were primarily DH's. I guess what I am trying to say is, historically there is a premise to put in those players who are deserving regardless how many played the position at the same time.

    Don Cameron
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    Jim Bottomley was voted in by Frankie Frisch and his cronies on the Veterans Committee and does not belong in the HOF. George Sisler retired before most of the others even made their debuts so I am not sure how you consider him to be in the same era of players. Regardless my main point why McGriff is not worthy of the HOF is due to his HR total of 493 which is the strongest argument his supporters have to get him enshrined simply is not enough. He played in an era where home runs were plentiful due to yes steroids but also smaller stadiums. He was an average defensive first baseman at best, only a five time all star and the closest he ever came to winning an MVP was placing 4th in 1993. He did winning 2 HR titles but that and 493 HR's just doesn't cut it anymore.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

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    Re: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post


    3) How many first basemen from one era can go into the Hall? McGriff's career coincided all but perfectly with Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro, Frank Thomas and Jeff Bagwell. Each of those players will retire with better qualifications than McGriff. (We're not even counting Eddie Murray, who arrived before him, and the Thome-Delgado-Giambi-Helton group that followed.) Even if you grant that McGriff was the fifth best first baseman of his era -- and that's debatable -- that doesn't sound like a Hall of Famer to me.
    Being the fifth best at a position did not keep out of the Hall of Fame Richie Ashburn and Larry Doby, two center fielders from the 1950s who clearly rank behind Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle and Duke Snider as center fielders from that era.
    That doesn't mean McGriff should be in the HOF but assuming for the sake of argument that he was merely the fifth best at his position in his era should not itself keep him out IMO. I also wonder if McGriff would rank behind McGwire and Palmiero absent chemical enhancements.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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    Re: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    Being the fifth best at a position did not keep out of the Hall of Fame Richie Ashburn and Larry Doby, two center fielders from the 1950s who clearly rank behind Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle and Duke Snider as center fielders from that era.
    That doesn't mean McGriff should be in the HOF but assuming for the sake of argument that he was merely the fifth best at his position in his era should not itself keep him out IMO. I also wonder if McGriff would rank behind McGwire and Palmiero absent chemical enhancements.
    IMO Ashburn doesn't belong. Doby I think is in for his negro league achievents as well as his MLB achievements.

    Again, IMO McGriff and his 497 HR's just aren't enough. If he had an MVP or a couple years where he was close in voting along with a reputation or some hardware showing he could play defense then yes he would be worthy of the HOF.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

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    RedsBaron (07-02-2013)

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    Re: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    IMO Ashburn doesn't belong. Doby I think is in for his negro league achievents as well as his MLB achievements.

    Again, IMO McGriff and his 497 HR's just aren't enough. If he had an MVP or a couple years where he was close in voting along with a reputation or some hardware showing he could play defense then yes he would be worthy of the HOF.
    You mean a gold glove like Palmeiro won when he played only 20 or so games on the field? That would have given him some credit? Really? Wow

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    Re: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Cameron View Post
    You mean a gold glove like Palmeiro won when he played only 20 or so games on the field? That would have given him some credit? Really? Wow
    Yes that one GG award given to Palmeiro discredits the hundreds upon hundreds given to others over the years.
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    Re: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

    As with most things in life, a balance is best. In this case, a balance between the stats and the eye. You shouldn't use one exclusively to determine who is HoF worthy.

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    Joseph (07-03-2013)

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    Re: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    IMO Ashburn doesn't belong. Doby I think is in for his negro league achievents as well as his MLB achievements.

    Again, IMO McGriff and his 497 HR's just aren't enough. If he had an MVP or a couple years where he was close in voting along with a reputation or some hardware showing he could play defense then yes he would be worthy of the HOF.
    I am ambivalent about McGriff. He is virtually the definition of a borderline HOF candidate. Bill James created the Hall of Fame Monitor, a method of evaluating a player's chances of being inducted into the Hall of Fame based upon the player's statistics and historical voting patterns. The average member of the Hall of Fame has a Hall of Fame Monitor Score of 100.
    McGriff's Hall of Fame Monitor Score? 100.
    I love Tony Perez and I am glad he is in the Hall of Fame. Perez's Hall of Fame Monitor Score? 81.
    The Jaffe WAR Score System ranks Perez as the 27th best first baseman of all time, with a career WAR score of 53.9 The 28th best first baseman? McGriff, with a score of 52.6. They both rank ahead of Orlando Cepeda, Frank Chance and Jim Bottomley, first basemen who are in the HOF.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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    Re: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    I am ambivalent about McGriff. He is virtually the definition of a borderline HOF candidate. Bill James created the Hall of Fame Monitor, a method of evaluating a player's chances of being inducted into the Hall of Fame based upon the player's statistics and historical voting patterns. The average member of the Hall of Fame has a Hall of Fame Monitor Score of 100.
    McGriff's Hall of Fame Monitor Score? 100.
    I love Tony Perez and I am glad he is in the Hall of Fame. Perez's Hall of Fame Monitor Score? 81.
    The Jaffe WAR Score System ranks Perez as the 27th best first baseman of all time, with a career WAR score of 53.9 The 28th best first baseman? McGriff, with a score of 52.6. They both rank ahead of Orlando Cepeda, Frank Chance and Jim Bottomley, first basemen who are in the HOF.
    Jim Bottomley and Frank Chance do not belong. These two are perfect examples of past players who have been inducted who should not of been. I am also a fan of Bill James and one point he often makes is just because the HOF has made the mistake in the past of lowering the bar by allowing players like them in means we should keep doing so.

    I just stand by my original point that McGriff while a very good player IMO was basically a HR hitter in a HR era who simply didn't hit enough HR's or was dominant enough to warrant induction into the HOF.

    The Perez and Cepeda points are very good ones. I love Tony but even I can look at things without rose colored glasses on and admit he is very much a borderline HOF player.

    If McGriff gets in one day I won't lose any sleep over it because yes he was a very good player and there are much worse players than he was already in . He just doesn't get my vote.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

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    Re: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

    The work stoppage of the 1994 season may have cost McGriff election into the HOF. The season ended roughly two-thirds of the way in. At that point McGriff had 34 HRs along with 94 RBI and a batting line of .318/.389/.623. It wouldn't appear to be a stretch to assume that had the season been played out McGriff would have added at least another 7 HRs to his total. Seven more HRs that season would have ultimately been enough to give him 500 for his career.
    Frankly, if McGriff was otherwise worthy of HOF induction those "missing" 7 HRs shouldn't matter, and if he isn't worthy of being in the HOF then another 7 HRs shouldn't change that either.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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    Re: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Cameron View Post
    But why are the numbers and stats so important.... especially the saber stats? Fred McGriff has been hosed for YEARS. With better or equal numbers to Stargell, and Perez.

    If you watched the game, McGriff was THE main cog offensively number of Championship Braves teams and his votes are in the 20% range. The whole voting system is bs.

    Don Cameron
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    That's a good example.
    Another good example is that Lofton was dropped off the ballot after his first year of eligiblity. I agree Lofton is a borderline HOFer, but he got practically no votes.

    How in the world did Biggio not get in this year? Oh yea, the HOF voters had to get on their high horse and vote no one in this year.

    Like most things in life that involve voting, the HOF is largely a popularity contest and very inconsistent. That's why I'm pretty apathetic about it. Doubt I will ever go through the trouble of visiting.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

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    Re: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Like most things in life that involve voting, the HOF is largely a popularity contest and very inconsistent. That's why I'm pretty apathetic about it. Doubt I will ever go through the trouble of visiting.
    For all of the shortcomings in HOF voting, the Hall of Fame itself, and the Cooperstown area in general, are well worth a visit. I had never been there until last summer. I absolutely loved it and want to go back.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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    Re: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    For all of the shortcomings in HOF voting, the Hall of Fame itself, and the Cooperstown area in general, are well worth a visit. I had never been there until last summer. I absolutely loved it and want to go back.
    Agree, I haven't been since 1989 when JB was inducted and I am dying to go back.

    The HOF has made several blunders in the past but IMO it has been by allowing to many less than qualified candidates in and not by keeping qualified candidates out. In the last 7 or 8 years it seems since Mazeroski was inducted it seems they have tightened things up to where it is much tougher to get in which IMO is a good thing.

    BTW I knew Frank Chance was regarded as a mistake but after looking at his career stats I think a strong case that even Sean Casey is more worthy of Cooperstown than he was.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...hancfr01.shtml
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