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Thread: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

  1. #31
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post

    BTW I knew Frank Chance was regarded as a mistake but after looking at his career stats I think a strong case that even Sean Casey is more worthy of Cooperstown than he was.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...hancfr01.shtml
    Chance got extra points for (1) his managerial record and (2) being in a poem. He remains the only manager in history to win a World Series with the Cubs, winning two World Series and four pennants between 1906 and 1910.
    They never wrote a poem about "Larkin to Reese to Casey."

    Yes, he was a bad pick for the HOF. Tinker was also a bad pick. Evers was more justified, if marginal.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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  3. #32
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    Re: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    IMO Ashburn doesn't belong. Doby I think is in for his negro league achievents as well as his MLB achievements.

    Again, IMO McGriff and his 497 HR's just aren't enough. If he had an MVP or a couple years where he was close in voting along with a reputation or some hardware showing he could play defense then yes he would be worthy of the HOF.
    As a long time baseball fan, I am not sure how you can say that McGriff was just a home run hitter. He was also an rbi man as well. As far as MVP or Gold Gloves. Tony Perez never won an MVP OR a Gold Glove, and yet--he made it into the Hall of Fame.

    McGriff's numbers in comparison:

    FRED MCGRIFF
    5X ALL-STAR
    0 MVP
    0 GOLD GLOVES
    4 YEARS .300 + AVERAGE
    8 YEARS 100+ RBI (11 YEARS 90+ RBI)
    10 YEARS 30+ HOME RUNS
    134 OPS+

    TONY PEREZ
    7X ALL-STAR
    0 MVP
    0 GOLD GLOVES
    3 YEARS .300 + AVG
    7 YEARS 100+ RBI (12 YEARS 90+ RBI)
    2 YEARS 30+ HOME RUNS
    122 OPS+

    WILLIE MCCOVEY
    6 X ALL-STAR
    1 MVP
    0 GOLD GLOVE
    2 YEARS .300 AVG +
    4 YEARS 100+ RBI (7 YEARS 90+ RBI)
    7 YEARS 30+ HOME RUNS
    147 OPS+

    WILLIE STARGELL
    7 X ALL-STAR
    1 MVP
    0 GOLD GLOVES
    2 YEARS .300 + AVG
    5 YEARS 100+ RBI (9 YEARS 90+ RBI)
    6 YEARS 30+ HOME RUNS
    147 OPS+

    ORLANDO CEPEDA
    7 X ALL-STAR
    1 MVP
    0 GOLD GLOVES
    9 X .300 + AVG
    5 YEARS 100+ RBI (9 YEARS 90+ RBI)
    5 YEARS 30+ HOME RUNS
    133 OPS +

    I think those numbers pretty much highlight why McGriff deserves to be in Cooperstown.

  4. #33
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

    McGriff played in a more of a hitters era than the other very border line inductees played in.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  5. #34
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    Re: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

    McGriff played in the 1990's, a time when practically EVERY team had a firstbaseman that was a masher (except for the Reds--seemingly)

    But--comparing his stats to ALL of the inducted players in Cooperstown--McGriff more than holds his own.

    If you compare McGriff's stats to the 19 other firstbaseman in the Hall of Fame,

    McGriff is
    15th in Batting Average .284
    12th in OBP at .377
    6th in SLG at .509
    8th in hits at 2490
    5th in HR at 493
    9th in RBI at 1550
    8th in RUNS at 1349
    11th in STOLEN BASES at 72

    NOW, comparing his stats with His 1990's peers,
    Bagwell (future HOF)
    Thomas (played less than HALF of his games at first Base)
    Thome (played less than HALF of his game as a first baseman)
    Palmeiro -- numbers boosted by steroids
    McGwire -- numbers boosted by steroids
    Delgado (future HOF)

    FRED MCGRIFF
    5X ALL-STAR
    0 MVP
    0 GOLD GLOVES
    3 SILVER SLUGGERS
    4 YEARS .300 + AVERAGE
    8 YEARS 100+ RBI (11 YEARS 90+ RBI)
    10 YEARS 30+ HOME RUNS
    134 OPS+

    JEFF BAGWELL
    4X ALL-STAR
    1 MVP
    1 GOLD GLOVES
    1 SILVER SLUGGER
    6 YEARS .300 + AVG
    8 YEARS 100+ RBI (9 YEARS 90+ RBI)
    9 YEARS 30+ HOME RUNS
    149 OPS+

    FRANK THOMAS (2322 GAMES PLAYED -- 971 AT 1ST BASE)
    5 X ALL-STAR
    2 MVP
    0 GOLD GLOVE
    4 SILVER SLUGGERS (1 IN 2000 AS DH)
    10 YEARS .300 AVG +
    11 YEARS 100+ RBI (13 YEARS 90+ RBI)
    9 YEARS 30+ HOME RUNS
    156 OPS+

    JIM THOME (2543 GAMES PLAYED---1106 AT FIRST BASE)
    5 X ALL-STAR
    0 MVP
    0 GOLD GLOVES
    1 SILVER SLUGGER (AS A THIRD BASEMAN)
    3 YEARS .300 + AVG
    9 YEARS 100+ RBI (11 YEARS 90+ RBI)
    12 YEARS 30+ HOME RUNS
    147 OPS+

    CARLOS DELGADO
    2 X ALL-STAR
    0 MVP
    0 GOLD GLOVES
    3 SILVER SLUGGERS
    3 X .300 + AVG
    9 YEARS 100+ RBI (12 YEARS 90+ RBI)
    11 YEARS 30+ HOME RUNS
    138 OPS +

    MARK MCGWIRE [STEROIDS]
    12 X ALL-STAR
    0 MVP
    1 GOLD GLOVES
    3 SILVER SLUGGER
    3 YEARS .300 + AVG
    7 YEARS 100+ RBI (10 YEARS 90+ RBI)
    11 YEARS 30+ HOME RUNS
    163 OPS+

    RAPHAEL PALMEIRO [STEROIDS]
    4 X ALL-STAR
    0 MVP
    3 GOLD GLOVES (WON A GG WHILE PLAYING ONLY 28 GAMES AT 1ST IN 1999)
    3 SILVER SLUGGERS
    3 X .300 + AVG
    10 YEARS 100+ RBI (10 YEARS 90+ RBI)
    10 YEARS 30+ HOME RUNS
    132 OPS +


    Compared against the past great first basemen and the great 1990's firstbasemen (Who also included, OLERUD, CLARK, FIELDER, GALRRAGGA, AND EVEN MO VAUGHN--I just do not see how you can rule out McGriff.

  6. #35
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Hall of Fame Thoughts by Chris Welsh

    Comparing McGriff to the other 19 first basemen is a bad comparison because remember several of them played in the dead ball era or eras where hitting was not of the same magnitude it was during McGriffs.

    Also comparisons to players like Jim Bottomly and Frank Chance dont carry alot of weight with me because they should not of been inducted. Just because the bar was lowered with players like them means we should use that same mistake to induct other substandard players.

    Having said that your post is a good one and I wish I could respond with more but my net access at the Cincy hotel I am at is not good.

    Regardless welcome to the board and I hope to respond better in a few days.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard


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