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Thread: Chris Davis

  1. #61
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Chris Davis

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    Yes, what irony. What fools we'll all look like when we gaze back upon Barry Bonds and think that it was just how the baseball was wound. Or expansion.

    Or the same ballparks they played in back then as they do now.

    It was like the end of Dallas, just a dream....
    Except we won't do that. Because we know far more about Bonds' situation than we do about other alleged users.
    Steroids are not only used to boost power. They can be used for any number of other things in the game that would never be traceable to a player's numbers in any way.

    If everyone could be using, what does it accomplish to write threads about how a player *might* be using? There is nothing we can do about drug use in baseball -- and there is no reliable way to tell from mere numbers or pictures whether use has taken place. We are fooling ourselves if we think otherwise.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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  3. #62
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Chris Davis

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    That would be fine if that's all you're doing. But it's not. You continually tell people they shouldn't be discussing it.

    If you want to disagree with someone's belief that so and so is a reasonable candidate for PEDS, go right ahead. You have that right to said opinion. But disagreeing with that and telling them they have no business discussing it are two very different things. You've constantly been making a habit of telling people what they can and cannot discuss with regard to PEDS. It's not your place.
    Speculation about PED use on a message board -- without corroborating evidence -- is at best a silly affair and at worst an offensive accusation. That's what I believe and I will continue to express it where I see fit.

    I have heard not a peep from the mods on this matter. If and when I do, I will certainly modify my behavior. Until then, I will assume my place in this discussion is wherever I want it to be -- and I really think this point of view should be heard.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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  5. #63
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Chris Davis

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Speculation about PED use on a message board -- without corroborating evidence -- is at best a silly affair and at worst an offensive accusation. That's what I believe and I will continue to express it where I see fit.

    I have heard not a peep from the mods on this matter. If and when I do, I will certainly modify my behavior. Until then, I will assume my place in this discussion is wherever I want it to be -- and I really think this point of view should be heard.
    I will always maintain that corroborating evidence is a demand for a court of law and science. Message boards... I think the standard should be a little more liberal.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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  7. #64
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Chris Davis

    Here's my test for when someone is allowed to be discussed as a potential user: when they are doing something completely ridiculous, never seen before or seen once in a generation on a yearly basis in any sport. In an unscientific and undocumented study performed by me, there have been more unheard of and unbelievable things done in the last 30 years in sports than in the 100 years prior.

    Sorry if that hurts people's feelings, but it is reality.

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  9. #65
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    Re: Chris Davis

    Here is his secret weapon:











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    Wonderful Monds (07-02-2013)

  11. #66
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Chris Davis

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Here's my test for when someone is allowed to be discussed as a potential user: when they are doing something completely ridiculous, never seen before or seen once in a generation on a yearly basis in any sport. In an unscientific and undocumented study performed by me, there have been more unheard of and unbelievable things done in the last 30 years in sports than in the 100 years prior.
    In 1919 Babe Ruth had more home runs than 10 of the 15 other teams in baseball.

    In 1920 Babe Ruth had more home runs than 14 of the 15 other teams in baseball.

    In 1921 Babe Ruth had more home runs than 8 of the 15 other teams in baseball and tied another one.

    In 1922 Babe Ruth had more home runs than 2 of the 15 other teams in baseball and he didn't play a full season.

    In 1923 Babe Ruth had more home runs than 3 of the 15 other teams in baseball.

    In 1924 Babe Ruth had more home runs than 8 of the other 15 teams in baseball.

    Those are things that aren't happening. Guys have been hitting a lot of home runs for a long time.

    George Foster hit 52 home runs in 1977. He had never hit 30 before that. What happened then?

  12. #67
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Chris Davis

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    In 1919 Babe Ruth had more home runs than 10 of the 15 other teams in baseball.

    In 1920 Babe Ruth had more home runs than 14 of the 15 other teams in baseball.

    In 1921 Babe Ruth had more home runs than 8 of the 15 other teams in baseball and tied another one.

    In 1922 Babe Ruth had more home runs than 2 of the 15 other teams in baseball and he didn't play a full season.

    In 1923 Babe Ruth had more home runs than 3 of the 15 other teams in baseball.

    In 1924 Babe Ruth had more home runs than 8 of the other 15 teams in baseball.

    Those are things that aren't happening. Guys have been hitting a lot of home runs for a long time.

    George Foster hit 52 home runs in 1977. He had never hit 30 before that. What happened then?
    I don't know. I wasn't alive when Ruth was doing that and I was 2 when Foster did his thing. Maybe they were both cheating. I don't know.

    What I do know is that those two "examples" over 100 years doesn't do much from persuading me to think any differently.

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  14. #68
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    Re: Chris Davis

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    In 1919 Babe Ruth had more home runs than 10 of the 15 other teams in baseball.

    In 1920 Babe Ruth had more home runs than 14 of the 15 other teams in baseball.

    In 1921 Babe Ruth had more home runs than 8 of the 15 other teams in baseball and tied another one.

    In 1922 Babe Ruth had more home runs than 2 of the 15 other teams in baseball and he didn't play a full season.

    In 1923 Babe Ruth had more home runs than 3 of the 15 other teams in baseball.

    In 1924 Babe Ruth had more home runs than 8 of the other 15 teams in baseball.

    Those are things that aren't happening. Guys have been hitting a lot of home runs for a long time.

    George Foster hit 52 home runs in 1977. He had never hit 30 before that. What happened then?
    We know what Ruth did. He developed a completely new approach to hitting. Instead of slapping at the ball with a light bat, focusing on making contact, he swung as hard as he could with a much heavier bat, focusing on hitting the ball farther. As soon as he did that, many others followed, and the dead ball era was over.

    But I am sure at the time, people questioned how he did it, and many speculated that he was cheating, which was perfectly logical to speculate about.

    As for Foster, he was a power hitter from day one. Most power hitters, when they reach their prime, have a career year. Foster didn't do anything that year that other power hitters had done over and over again throughout the history of baseball. And yet I am sure there were some who accused him of cheating as well.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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  16. #69
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    Re: Chris Davis

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Speculation about PED use on a message board -- without corroborating evidence -- is at best a silly affair
    Most of us are grown adults with full and busy lives, families and loved ones to care after, jobs to go to, cars, homes and other possessions to maintain, and what do we do? We spend valuable time at a computer, arguing about a game played with a ball and a stick. What do we do on this board that isn't silly?
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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  18. #70
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    Re: Chris Davis

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Except that it isn't easily disproved. In fact, it strongly is correlated that in the mid 90's through 2005, offense was up among an all-time high in baseball.

    Not by coincidence, since testing was implemented in 2006, the offense has gone away. Really not rocket science to figure out.
    Although if you actually run the correlations you will see scoring was already dropping while steroid usage was still increasing. Then you will see that scoring continued to drop at the same pace even after steroid testing began and usage rates plummeted. You should have seen a rapid drop in scoring if steroids had been strongly boosting scoring as you believe. The stats clearly show that steroid usage and scoring DO NOT correlate well at all.

    There were plenty of other things that were going on in baseball over those years that more accurately describe the reasons for the increase then decrease in scoring rates. I listed them all in Redszone threads a few times in the past. There were a whole host of sweeping changes over those years that fully account for the ebbs and flows in scoring. Too many people missed these transformations due to the overwhelming publicity given to steroids.

    I'll side with Baseball Prospectus who pointed out the fallacy of the whole "steroids ruined the game" angle rather than the wingnuts who cry "STEROIDS!, STEROIDS!" every time someone goes on a home run tear.

    There have been plenty of times in the past when home runs suddenly spiked around the league. Guys like Ted Kluszweski and Davey Johnson and many others had sudden drastic increases in home run totals. But when it happens nowadays everyone has to fall into the steroids fallacy every time. The fact that these spikes are still occurring with current players should be an indication that steroids were not as influential as most still believe.
    Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 07-02-2013 at 01:12 AM.

  19. #71
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Chris Davis

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Finger pointers pointing fingers at those pointing fingers.
    And talk about flipping boring too....

    The elephant in the closet for those willing to ponder the notion that Davis is a juicer is that the position assumes that his performance over just half a season is representative of his true talent level... In other words less than 350 PAs is all one needs to determine Chris Davis has dramatically changed and he isn't due for a regression....
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  20. #72
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Chris Davis

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Although if you actually run the correlations you will see scoring was already dropping while steroid usage was still increasing. Then you will see that scoring continued to drop at the same pace even after steroid testing began and usage rates plummeted. You should have seen a rapid drop in scoring if steroids had been strongly boosting scoring as you believe. The stats clearly show that steroid usage and scoring DO NOT correlate well at all.

    There were plenty of other things that were going on in baseball over those years that more accurately describe the reasons for the increase then decrease in scoring rates. I listed them all a few times in Redszone threads a few times in the past.
    I'm not as concerned about overall league scoring than I am Mac, Sosa, and Bonds blowing Maris out of the water. However short-sighted I might be for thinking so, do you believe their home run totals would have been the same if they had not juiced?

  21. #73
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Chris Davis

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Although if you actually run the correlations you will see scoring was already dropping while steroid usage was still increasing. Then you will see that scoring continued to drop at the same pace even after steroid testing began and usage rates plummeted. You should have seen a rapid drop in scoring if steroids had been strongly boosting scoring as you believe. The stats clearly show that steroid usage and scoring DO NOT correlate well at all.

    There were plenty of other things that were going on in baseball over those years that more accurately describe the reasons for the increase then decrease in scoring rates. I listed them all a few times in Redszone threads a few times in the past.
    Honest question.

    You mention scoring was dropping, but were home runs dropping?

  22. #74
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Chris Davis

    Quote Originally Posted by JayBruceFan View Post
    Here is his secret weapon:










    First of all, awesome. I love orangutans. Secondly, those are some huge cannons.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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  24. #75
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    Re: Chris Davis

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Honest question.

    You mention scoring was dropping, but were home runs dropping?
    This is important, because remember, pitchers can be on PED's as well.

    While I agree with AD that there were other factors besides PED's in play to account for more scoring a decade ago, the problem with his argument is that we don't know who or how many were using PED's at any one time. There actually could be more using now than in the late '90's.

    The testing is far too minimal and the penalties far too weak to conclude that they have had any impact on actual usage. Melkey Cabrera was caught using PED's and his punishment was a $16M contract and a World Series ring.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.


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