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Thread: Batting Average and the Reds

  1. #31
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    Re: Batting Average and the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Of all the good that comes out of the newer age of stats, these kinds of discussions are mind numbing.

    No offense.
    And this thread wasn't intended to pit one stat against the other.

    I guess the thread is unimportant if you assume that BA means nothing. But I find it hard to accept that.

    i can see the argument that BA standing alone is unimportant. Not agreeing, but I see it.

    But I can't see the argument that BA doesn't contribute to OBP and SLG. I don't see how you achieve a good OBP or any SLG without hits.

    And I stand by the premise of the thread, that if the Reds had better BA hitters, it would help the offense.

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  3. #32
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Batting Average and the Reds

    Some day in the future baseball fans will look back and wonder why in the world people used to rely on a ridiculous stat like AVG to evaluate hitters. Some people already wonder that.

  4. #33
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    Re: Batting Average and the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    And this thread wasn't intended to pit one stat against the other.

    I guess the thread is unimportant if you assume that BA means nothing. But I find it hard to accept that.

    i can see the argument that BA standing alone is unimportant. Not agreeing, but I see it.

    But I can't see the argument that BA doesn't contribute to OBP and SLG. I don't see how you achieve a good OBP or any SLG without hits.

    And I stand by the premise of the thread, that if the Reds had better BA hitters, it would help the offense.
    I like BA. But I just don't see the merit of debating slash lines when they are really pretty close. It's not like you can order them, I'll take the .250/.320/.450 please.

  5. #34
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Batting Average and the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    And this thread wasn't intended to pit one stat against the other.

    I guess the thread is unimportant if you assume that BA means nothing. But I find it hard to accept that.

    i can see the argument that BA standing alone is unimportant. Not agreeing, but I see it.

    But I can't see the argument that BA doesn't contribute to OBP and SLG. I don't see how you achieve a good OBP or any SLG without hits.

    And I stand by the premise of the thread, that if the Reds had better BA hitters, it would help the offense.
    Who said you could achieve it without getting hits? That is a terrible strawman argument proposed by someone earlier in the thread so he wouldn't have to admit he was wrong and to disguise the fact that AVG is a bad way to evaluate hitters. It doesn't add to the discussion.

  6. #35
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Batting Average and the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Some day in the future baseball fans will look back and wonder why in the world people used to rely on a ridiculous stat like AVG to evaluate hitters. Some people already wonder that.
    The same can be said for many statistics and metrics, including some newer ones.

  7. #36
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Batting Average and the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Wouldn't you agree that some types of hits are more valuable than others? If so, why use a metric that ignores the difference?

    I will content myself with having planted a seed in some people's minds. Hopefully that seed will sprout and encourage a few folks to look a little deeper and seek to understand the game at a deeper level than AVG can go. I think most people here on Redszone already know this stuff anyway.
    Of course some hits are more valuable than others but all at-bats rely on getting a hit else there can be no 'more valuable' hits. You can't hit a double if you don't first get a single. Slugging isn't an isolated metric in a vacuum. It's a stat that is made up of components. It's like a car. It's easy to say one car is better than another, but at the end of the day, cars depend on each component to function to their potential or else the entire car is worthless.

    Likewise, slugging and on base percentage are both made up of components. Slugging, in particular, relies on batting average. The actual equation is ISO+BA=SLG but ISO is .000 if the BA is also .000 and thus the slugging is zero.

    No one is treating batting average, at least in this discussion, as if it were a totalitarian quantifier of production. They're discussing average in the context of being an important component to overall production... because it is. No one is comparing players because of batting average. They're discussing the real truth about how runs are scored that getting hits is a framework of run scoring. Walks alone have limited returns.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  8. #37
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    Re: Batting Average and the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    I will content myself with having planted a seed in some people's minds. Hopefully that seed will sprout and encourage a few folks to look a little deeper and seek to understand the game at a deeper level than AVG can go. I think most people here on Redszone already know this stuff anyway.
    I generally think you're a good poster, but the condescension here (and on this topic in general) is really unbelievable. Just so you know.

  9. #38
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Batting Average and the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    The same can be said for many statistics and metrics, including some newer ones.
    Agreed.

  10. #39
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    Re: Batting Average and the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    I generally think you're a good poster, but the condescension here (and on this topic in general) is really unbelievable. Just so you know.
    I think that is just a matter of your perspective. Take a look at some of the rude, insulting and combative posts in defense of AVG in this thread. I think I defended my viewpoint very politely in comparison. I do feel that use of AVG is a key indicator of a poster's knowledge or lack thereof. That's just my opinion and I don't feel I should have to hide it just because it is not popular amongst some people.
    Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 07-01-2013 at 10:57 PM.

  11. #40
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    Re: Batting Average and the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    You can certainly have SLG without AVG. SLG is Total Bases divided by At-Bats.
    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Who said you could achieve it without getting hits? That is a terrible strawman argument proposed by someone earlier in the thread so he wouldn't have to admit he was wrong and to disguise the fact that AVG is a bad way to evaluate hitters. It doesn't add to the discussion.
    Explain how you can have slugging without average.

    Please, enlighten. Show your work. How do you improve slugging without improving average? How do you have any slugging without average?

    If you can prove those things, then feel free to call it a strawman. Unless you can do that, clearly you are hereby found guilty of saying it.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  12. #41
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Batting Average and the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Explain how you can have slugging without average.

    Please, enlighten. Show your work. How do you improve slugging without improving average? How do you have any slugging without average?

    If you can prove those things, then feel free to call it a strawman. Unless you can do that, clearly you are hereby found guilty of saying it.
    LOL I already showed you. Maybe you should calm down a little bit. No need to be so emotional.

    SLG = TB / AB

    See any mention of AVG there? No? Neither do I.

    You can increase SLG without changing AVG by turning singles into doubles and home runs. Get more bases on the same number of hits.

    There. I proved those things and shall henceforth call your statement a strawman.

    AVG does a poor job of correlating with run scoring, certainly much less so than OBP and SLG. So expecting a reliance on AVG at the expense of OBP or SLG to yield an increase in run scoring is not likely to end well for your team.

    Back to the original topic of the thread. Boosting OBP and/or SLG and hence OPS would be a better strategy than boosting AVG. Concentrating on wOBA would be even better.
    Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 07-01-2013 at 11:09 PM.

  13. #42
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    Re: Batting Average and the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    I think that is just a matter of your perspective. Take a look at some of the rude, insulting and combative posts in defense of AVG in this thread. I think I defended my viewpoint very politely in comparison. I do feel that use of AVG is a key indicator of a poster's knowledge or lack thereof. That's just my opinion and I don't feel I should have to hide it just because it is not popular amongst some people.
    Very polite. I think the funny disconnect here is that everyone in this thread is completely informed on what you're talking about and agrees with you to a certain extent. Using the word batting average in a post doesn't necessitate a sabermetrics 101 lesson.

  14. #43
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Batting Average and the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    Very polite. I think the funny disconnect here is that everyone in this thread is completely informed on what you're talking about and agrees with you to a certain extent. Using the word batting average in a post doesn't necessitate a sabermetrics 101 lesson.
    I think the posts in this thread revealed a pressing need for a Statistics 101 lesson without question. One or two of the pupils needed remedial lessons. Oh come on that was a joke. Lighten up folks!
    Last edited by AtomicDumpling; 07-01-2013 at 11:07 PM.

  15. #44
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    Re: Batting Average and the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    Back to the original topic of the thread. Boosting OBP and/or SLG and hence OPS would be a better strategy than boosting AVG. Concentrating on wOBA would be even better.
    But we can't discuss why we often have a low OPS...stat that shall not be named.

  16. #45
    Member Ironman92's Avatar
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    Re: Batting Average and the Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    I think the posts in this thread revealed a pressing need for a Statistics 101 lesson without question. One or two of the pupils needed remedial lessons. Oh come on that was a joke. Lighten up folks!
    Your tone can easily be read as your are the superior knowledge on what is right and anyone doubting or denying is just some dummy to laugh at because they bring no relevance.

    Making a point without being arrogant can go a long way. Reading through this thread one just about has to assume your nose is up in the air as your smugness exudes.


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