One simple fix that costs nothing

[RedEye]

Hey, if you do that, then if they start getting on base - preferably via a walk - then they will magically score runs.

What does this even mean?

[Chip R]

What does this even mean?

That anyone can drive in a run but it takes skill to get on base.

[RedEye]

That anyone can drive in a run but it takes skill to get on base.

It takes skill to do both, but one can't happen without the other happening first.

[Chip R]

It takes skill to do both, but one can't happen without the other happening first.

Yes but runs are difficult to score when no one is able to drive them in unless you have a bunch of guys who excel at getting on base and stealing home.

[Kc61]

Of course I agree with you here. But I think the solution -- failing some magic potion to make these guys all better -- is to lump together the best hitters at the beginning of the lineup.

You surely didn't mean the word "solution." It's not a solution.

It's a tweak that potentially could result in an upgrade.

The solution is better hitters.

And keep in mind that three of the four "good" hitters already are lumped. Cozart often causes an out, but infrequently double plays. These guys already hit together.

And keep in mind Phillips has been lumped with Votto and Bruce all year. It hasn't prevented him from a poor month and .735 OPS, when I last checked.

Sure, change the order, but don't expect too much.

[RedEye]

Yes but runs are difficult to score when no one is able to drive them in unless you have a bunch of guys who excel at getting on base and stealing home.

Not as difficult as when no one is on base to begin with. First things first, right?

[RedEye]

You surely didn't mean the word "solution." It's not a solution.

It's a tweak that potentially could result in an upgrade.

The solution is better hitters.

And keep in mind that three of the four "good" hitters already are lumped. Cozart often causes an out, but infrequently double plays. These guys already hit together.

And keep in mind Phillips has been lumped with Votto and Bruce all year. It hasn't prevented him from a poor month and .735 OPS, when I last checked.

Sure, change the order, but don't expect too much.

Yeah, I suppose it depends on what you are trying to solve. But okay, I probably should have used the words "best option" instead. And don't worry, I am not expecting too much. Everything helps though.

[kaldaniels]

I don't even know what the debate is about in here anymore.

To be clear, is there anyone here who would not move Cozart down in the order if they became Reds manager this week? Sir?

[Chip R]

Not as difficult as when no one is on base to begin with. First things first, right?

A solo HR happens more often than a steal of home.

But that's not really the point is it? It's impossible (save for solo HRs) to score without reaching base. But it's also pretty difficult (save for a steal of home or a wild pitch or passed ball) to score without having a guy up there to drive in all those guys that get on base.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Not as difficult as when no one is on base to begin with. First things first, right?

No. They work in concert. You need to look at the whole and not just the parts. The info is all useful, but too often people look at the individual stats then group them together and assume the results from the new configuration. It doesn't work that way. Yes, you must get on base in order to score, but you also must have guys to drive them in. You don't just build a jigsaw puzzle with only the boarder pieces. It's a good place to start, but it doesn't show you the whole picture. (particularly proud of that example. *grin*)

[reds44]

I don't understand how this is being argued.

More guys on base for your better hitters = good.
Better hitters (not Cozart) getting more ABs = good.
Worse hitters (Cozart) getting less ABs = good.

It's really that simple.

[RedEye]

No. They work in concert. You need to look at the whole and not just the parts. The info is all useful, but too often people look at the individual stats then group them together and assume the results from the new configuration. It doesn't work that way. Yes, you must get on base in order to score, but you also must have guys to drive them in. You don't just build a jigsaw puzzle with only the boarder pieces. It's a good place to start, but it doesn't show you the whole picture. (particularly proud of that example. *grin*)

Of course. Who says I am looking at the parts? I like your jigsaw puzzle example, but it only goes so far. There is no sequential component to what order you have to do a puzzle. in baseball, It is impossible to get an RBI without first getting a hit or a walk. That is a basic dimension of the run scoring reality.

You are assuming that somehow the current lineup order is responsible for players being effective in their roles -- but the evidence suggests that this is a myth. What really matters, on the whole, is 1) having your best hitters bat more and 2) having them hit next to each other.

[_Sir_Charles_]

I don't even know what the debate is about in here anymore.

To be clear, is there anyone here who would not move Cozart down in the order if they became Reds manager this week? Sir?

I'd be willing to give it a try...just to get him going. He needs a change just to alter his routine and mindset IMO. But outside of Phillips, I really don't see a good choice to hit second. And outside of Phillips, I don't see a really good choice to hit cleanup either. Not if we DO want to break up the lefties. And that IS a good idea if possible.

The main point I was trying to make in this thread was whether grouping good hitters and bad hitters together is better than spreading them out or not. In regards to keeping some mild constant pressure on the opposing pitcher versus a small difficult portion of the lineup and then allowing the pitcher to regroup against a very weak portion of a lineup. It's being asserted here that grouping them will have a net positive effect...I'm not sure that's true.

[reds44]

Choo has .418 OBP.
Votto has .431 OBP

Phillips and Bruce lead the team in RBIs largely from driving in Choo and Votto.

So why do you need a middle man. Just go Choo, Votto, Phillips, Bruce, Frazier, LF, C, Cozart.

To Sir Charles' point, the 6-9 of the order would be really, really bad (and that's almost half the lineup).

Moving Cozart out of the two hole would help, but it's not going to fix every problem the team has.

[Raisor]

I'd be willing to give it a try...just to get him going. He needs a change just to alter his routine and mindset IMO. But outside of Phillips, I really don't see a good choice to hit second. And outside of Phillips, I don't see a really good choice to hit cleanup either. Not if we DO want to break up the lefties. And that IS a good idea if possible.

Breaking up lefties is fine if you're talking about everything else being equal. In this case they aren't.

Moving Phillips to the second slot improves the second slot. Moving Phillips out of the cleanup and Bruce into cleanup improves that.

Those are two improvements in two of your top four spots in the lineup.

The lineup I posted earlier is another way to go. It gives you an above average hitter at every slot of the lineup except for 8th.

There are many ways to make the lineup better, but they all should include getting Cozart and Phillips out of their current spots, IMO.