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Thread: The lack of plate discipline and patience for Reds hitters

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    The lack of plate discipline and patience for Reds hitters

    It seems like to me that Reds hitters generally have little or no plate discipline and patience except for Choo and Votto.
    Everybody knows that having plate discipline and patience helps directly with run-socring.

    Except for Votto(.431) and Choo(.418), nobody on this team has an OBP over .340(Fraizer is 3rd with .335) while Cardinals have 7 players.

    *O-Swing%(The percentage of pitches a batter swings at outside the strike zone)
    - Choo: 22.0%, Votto: 22.1%, Bruce: 29.0%, Cozart: 31.5%, Fraizer: 32.4%, Phillips: 38.4%

    *Swing%(The overall percentage of pitches a batter swings at)
    - Choo: 39.8%, Votto: 42.4%, Fraizer, Cozart: 47.4%, Bruce: 51.5%, Phillips: 52.5%

    *SwStr%(The percentage of total pitches a batter swings and misses on)
    - Choo: 8.1%, Votto: 8.2%, Cozart: 8.4%, Phillips: 10.6%, Fraizer: 11.2%, Bruce: 14.2%

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    Re: The lack of plate discipline and patience for Reds hitters

    I am kind of doing the same thing that some of you have already done before. I point the finger at Jacoby. Offensivly itīs been the same story for years now: constantly inconstant. One game the guys tear up opponents pitching and the next day POOF! All offense has dissappeared. Isnīt it the hitting coach to teach a proper plate approach. If so finally get rid of him.

    Sorry. This is kind of a rage post. No disrespect here. But dropping 2 out of 3 against the Mariners? CīMON MAN!

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    Re: The lack of plate discipline and patience for Reds hitters

    Dusty's got the answer to this. The Reds need to be more aggressive!

    Quote of note
    On FS Ohio Sunday, Thom Brennaman said that Dusty Baker has mentioned numerous times this season that he believes the Reds are not aggressive enough on the 1st pitch. This weekend, Thom said Dusty was “stunned” when he told him the Reds swing at 1st pitch more any team in MLB and have lowest BA in MLB (.283) when swinging at the first pitch (ML .335.).

    Read more: http://www.700wlw.com/pages/lancesBl...#ixzz2YT0VIgKp

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    Re: The lack of plate discipline and patience for Reds hitters

    Dusty's never been able to get Votto straightened out (quote is from 2008):

    "On [Joey] Votto: 'He needs to swing some more. I talked to him about that. Strikeouts aren't the only criteria. I'd like to see him more aggressive.'

    "'A lot of this on-base percentage is taking away from the aggressiveness of some young kids."

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...articleid=7219

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    Re: The lack of plate discipline and patience for Reds hitters

    Dusty is working on getting Choo to swing more, too.

    (Choo) said Baker told some slumping players to take pitches.

    "That's what I was doing," Choo said, "(but) he told me to be more aggressive."

    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...bronson-arroyo

    Also:

    "I haven't been hitting well in May so Dusty Baker [Reds manager] told me to be more aggressive because I like to work the count."

    http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index...t_as_reds.html
    Last edited by CesarGeronimo; 07-08-2013 at 11:46 AM.

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    Re: The lack of plate discipline and patience for Reds hitters

    At least, Cozart had things going better in mid-June thanks to his hitting approach:

    "He's been swinging better and is being more aggressive," Reds manager Dusty Baker said.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...n&ymd=20130618

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    Re: The lack of plate discipline and patience for Reds hitters

    The key to the Reds most recent win? They were more aggressive!

    "I think we were more aggressive tonight," Baker said. "We weren't getting deep in the count; we were attacking the first pitch. Sometimes that's what it takes. If you don't know what else to do, go on the attack."

    http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/mlb/g...recap&c_id=cin

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    Re: The lack of plate discipline and patience for Reds hitters

    Brook Jacoby. That's how he was as a player

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    Re: The lack of plate discipline and patience for Reds hitters

    like to see Kevin Mitchell as batting coach and see how different this team thinks when it would start in BP as Kevin always did..Not looking confused at the plate with no plan as these Reds seem to look

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    Re: The lack of plate discipline and patience for Reds hitters

    Hitting coaches can't teach plate discipline. No matter how many coaches a guy gets, they tend to have the exact same plate discipline as they always have. Brook Jacoby is not the reason the Reds are aggressive at the plate and don't draw walks. The players are. They are that way for a bunch of different reasons. Brandon Phillips thinks he can hit everything. And he can. But he can only do damage in a very limited area, but since he makes contact with a lot all over the plate, he keeps swinging at garbage because he isn't swinging and missing at it, so he thinks he can hit it. He has never really drawn walks at any point in his major or minor league career. That isn't a skill guys tend to really develop. Either you have it or you don't and very few guys that didn't have it, find it.

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    Re: The lack of plate discipline and patience for Reds hitters

    Sorry, but I disagree. A hitting instructor can have an effect on plate approach--even in the major leagues--however, and I am a Dusty Baker fan.... Jacoby isn't the one that is the only coaching the hitters, Baker is as well.

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    Re: The lack of plate discipline and patience for Reds hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by BASEBALL FAN View Post
    Sorry, but I disagree. A hitting instructor can have an effect on plate approach--even in the major leagues--however, and I am a Dusty Baker fan.... Jacoby isn't the one that is the only coaching the hitters, Baker is as well.
    And yet the history of players in the game of baseball reaching back a hundred years shows that an incredibly small percentage of players develop the ability to draw a walk.

    If it were something a hitting coach could help with, we would see it more often. But we hardly ever see it. The first guy that can figure out how to teach it to players will be worth his weight in hundred dollar bills.

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    Re: The lack of plate discipline and patience for Reds hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    And yet the history of players in the game of baseball reaching back a hundred years shows that an incredibly small percentage of players develop the ability to draw a walk.

    If it were something a hitting coach could help with, we would see it more often. But we hardly ever see it. The first guy that can figure out how to teach it to players will be worth his weight in hundred dollar bills.
    I am unsure where you have gained your statistical insight on this one; however, a change in philosophical plate approach really doesn't have to be measured in terms of walks. The approach can be psychological, mechanical, as well as philosophical.

    What pitch to look for, when to look for it, zone hitting--etc. and knowing when and how to adjust your swing, mechanics, and your approach not only on game by game basis, but per at bat, and per pitch.

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: The lack of plate discipline and patience for Reds hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by BASEBALL FAN View Post
    I am unsure where you have gained your statistical insight on this one; however, a change in philosophical plate approach really doesn't have to be measured in terms of walks. The approach can be psychological, mechanical, as well as philosophical.

    What pitch to look for, when to look for it, zone hitting--etc. and knowing when and how to adjust your swing, mechanics, and your approach not only on game by game basis, but per at bat, and per pitch.
    I gained my statistical insight on it through numerous studies that have shown it. I guess you are right that plate discipline doesn't have to be measured in walks, but it almost always is. Guys with good plate discipline tend to draw walks because they don't swing at bad pitches.

    As for the second part, we are in a day and age where anyone can get a good idea of where a guy should be swinging at pitches at, what pitches guys are likely to be throwing in what counts and so on. So that should never really be an issue at this point in time. Of course we know that some players don't like knowing those things (Brandon Phillips is one of those guys, he has said he would rather read and react to the pitch).

    With guys adjusting within the game or even an at bat.... well, the guys who have the skillset to do that and actually do it can probably be counted on one hand. Those guys just don't exist in spades.

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    Re: The lack of plate discipline and patience for Reds hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I gained my statistical insight on it through numerous studies that have shown it. I guess you are right that plate discipline doesn't have to be measured in walks, but it almost always is. Guys with good plate discipline tend to draw walks because they don't swing at bad pitches.

    As for the second part, we are in a day and age where anyone can get a good idea of where a guy should be swinging at pitches at, what pitches guys are likely to be throwing in what counts and so on. So that should never really be an issue at this point in time. Of course we know that some players don't like knowing those things (Brandon Phillips is one of those guys, he has said he would rather read and react to the pitch).

    With guys adjusting within the game or even an at bat.... well, the guys who have the skillset to do that and actually do it can probably be counted on one hand. Those guys just don't exist in spades.
    Again, a hitting coach can impart a philosophy on the hitters, much like a pitching coach can. I know Lau did, Hriniak did, and if you read Williams' book The Science of Hitting, he did as well--when he took over the Washington Senators in 1969.

    It is not about taking walks, but rather it is about managing the hitters mechanical and mental approaches to hitting, and most importantly to help them realize their potential and maximize their confidence--whether that is hitting early in the count, late in the count... taking pitches... what have you.

    With the Reds hitters, you are dealing with --four veteran starters, and then four marginal/average baseball players who are still trying to find their way in this game.

    Generally, the younger and/or inexperience players have trouble laying off or identifying breaking pitches--thus, Baker and/or Jacoby, are instructing them to attack in the early count when they are more likely to get a fastball, then to set themselves up for pitcher's pitches.


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