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Thread: 1. Choo 2. Votto 3. Phillips 4. Bruce ....... the time is NOW!!!!!!!

  1. #46
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: 1. Choo 2. Votto 3. Phillips 4. Bruce ....... the time is NOW!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker View Post
    Time is but a spatial metaphor.

    There is a universe where Cozart bats #8. Just not ours.
    There is a universe where all life is animated sock puppets. In that universe Cozart bats cleanup.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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  3. #47
    Member smixsell's Avatar
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    Re: 1. Choo 2. Votto 3. Phillips 4. Bruce ....... the time is NOW!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Vs a righty starter would you dare swap Bruce and BP?
    yes.

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    Re: 1. Choo 2. Votto 3. Phillips 4. Bruce ....... the time is NOW!!!!!!!

    I really hate to disturb the Cozart hitting second discussion. But IMO the catcher position on the Reds is equally, if not more, disappointing offensively.

    There are 20 catchers in the National League with OPS better than Mesoraco's .668. There are 31 catchers in the NL with OPS better than Hanigan's .569. Some have small samples so if you use a minimum of 145 at bats (Hanigan's number) you still have eleven catchers better than Mes, twelve if you include Kratz at 140 at bats. And there are four more at that AB level (Montero, Suzuki, Brantly, and Maldonado) who are lower in OPS than Mes but still higher than Hanigan.

    Of all NL shortstops Cozart is 18th in OPS. Of all NL shortstops with 145 at bats, he is tenth. Add in Quintanilla at 142 at bats, Cozart is eleventh. (Cozart is "qualified" by his number of at bats, and is seventh out of ten qualified NL shortstops in OPS.)

    Looking at team stats, the Reds catching position has a .593 OPS, worst in the NL. NL average is .703. Shortstop, Reds have a .610, eleventh among the fifteen NL teams. NL average is .684.

    These are supposedly two "defensive" positions. I don't believe in that concept. Every position has to hit above sea level. The BMR was great because it had hitting up the middle, not just in the corners.

    Neither the Reds catchers nor their shortstops have shown that they belong in a winning NL lineup this year.

    By the way, Dioner Navarro has an .894 OPS in 117 at bats this year.
    Last edited by Kc61; 07-11-2013 at 03:16 PM.

  5. #49
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    Re: 1. Choo 2. Votto 3. Phillips 4. Bruce ....... the time is NOW!!!!!!!

    The only good thing about the catching tandom is that Dusty keeps them at the bottom of the lineup.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Member BungleBengals's Avatar
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    Re: 1. Choo 2. Votto 3. Phillips 4. Bruce ....... the time is NOW!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I really hate to disturb the Cozart hitting second discussion. But IMO the catcher position on the Reds is equally, if not more, disappointing offensively.
    I do not deny your argument that the catcher position and the SS need offensive improvement, but there is little that we can do inside the organization to improve either. Hanigan was hitting a little better before going back to DL. But the reason they are not getting as much flack is because they normally bat 8th.

    Last year I would have moved Hanigan up in the lineup (not as high as number 2 as some people wanted), but it makes me wonder about Dusty. Do not get me wrong, I think he brings a lot out in players that other managers cannot do, but his stubborness is starting to get frustrating. I wonder what Dusty would do if he had Molina or Posey behind the plate. Would he still hit them 8th?

    I agree with the OP. Let's look at yesterday's game in the innings we scored in:

    1st inning:
    Choo - double
    Cozart - ground out
    Votto - fly out
    BP - single (out), RBI
    2nd inning:
    Bruce - single
    Frazier - HBP
    Paul - walk
    Mez - sac fly, RBI
    Leake - double play

    3rd inning:
    Choo - walk
    Cozart - fielder's choice
    Votto - double
    BP - ground out, RBI
    Bruce - walk
    Frazier - foul out

    5th inning:
    Cozart - walk
    Votto - walk
    BP - fielder's choice
    Bruce - ground out, RBI
    Frazier - fly out

    7th inning:
    Choo - single
    Cozart - foul out
    Votto - walk
    BP - single, RBI
    Bruce - single, RBI
    Frazier - fly out
    Paul - fly out

    In a game where our offense "exploded" we had the top of the lineup begin an inning 3 times (1st, 3rd, and 7th). All three of those times, we saw Cozart get out. Why deny our best hitters the best chance to score? Cozart being in the two hole has become a lose-lose situation. His pop ups and ground outs normally do not move any runners and his fielders choices and double play balls further hurt our chance to score. Maybe if he bunted runners over, but I doubt he is very good at that let alone Dusty making that call.

    Also, besides our taking advantage of a high ERA pitcher, we also got to attack their bullpen. With our best hitters in order 1-5, we can rack up pitch counts if not ERA's of the opposing starting pitcher. Granted, I'm simply an observing fan, but it seems to me that when a SP is wheeling and dealing against this lineup (see Peralta, Saunders, etc), we have a very little chance. But if we can get the opposing pitcher pulled by 6th inning or sooner, then we usually reap the benefits of most team's bullpens.
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    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: 1. Choo 2. Votto 3. Phillips 4. Bruce ....... the time is NOW!!!!!!!

    If you compare the team to the league by lineup slot you get the following:

    Spot. Reds. NL. Difference
    1. 897. 724. +173
    2. 610. 708. -098
    3. 932. 823. +109
    4. 738. 797. -059
    5. 811. 750. +061
    6. 726. 718. +008
    7. 653. 685. -032
    8. 581. 658. -077

    Overall + 085
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: 1. Choo 2. Votto 3. Phillips 4. Bruce ....... the time is NOW!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by BungleBengals View Post
    In a game where our offense "exploded" we had the top of the lineup begin an inning 3 times (1st, 3rd, and 7th). All three of those times, we saw Cozart get out. Why deny our best hitters the best chance to score? Cozart being in the two hole has become a lose-lose situation. His pop ups and ground outs normally do not move any runners and his fielders choices and double play balls further hurt our chance to score. Maybe if he bunted runners over, but I doubt he is very good at that let alone Dusty making that call.
    Very well said. It seems like Cozart #2 doesn't even make sense on the old-school "small ball" philosophy of moving runners over and handling the bat. He is miscast in almost any role you'd want him to play there -- except for the "SS bats 2nd" one our manager seems to rely on, of course.

  10. #53
    13 Belongs in Cooperstown Captain13's Avatar
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    Re: 1. Choo 2. Votto 3. Phillips 4. Bruce ....... the time is NOW!!!!!!!

    If you move Cozart out of the two spot and down to the 8 hole and simply move everyone else up one you get the following:

    Choo
    Votto
    Phillips
    Bruce
    Frazier
    LF
    C
    Cozart
    P

    Any rally started by the top 4 will be quickly ruined, and after the 1st Choo will likely come up with outs already on the board and zero base-runners. I would venture to guess this lineup would not produce many (any) more wins than the current lineup. If you move anyone else to the two hole, they aren't outperforming Cozart so what is the point?
    What if this is as good as it gets?

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    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: 1. Choo 2. Votto 3. Phillips 4. Bruce ....... the time is NOW!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain13 View Post
    Any rally started by the top 4 will be quickly ruined, and after the 1st Choo will likely come up with outs already on the board and zero base-runners. I would venture to guess this lineup would not produce many (any) more wins than the current lineup. If you move anyone else to the two hole, they aren't outperforming Cozart so what is the point?
    Not true. Almost any hitter the Reds have would be better in the 2nd spot that Cozart. It's more of a rally killer to have an out machine between your good hitters at the top than it is to have a "dead" spot in the lineup between 6-9.

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    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: 1. Choo 2. Votto 3. Phillips 4. Bruce ....... the time is NOW!!!!!!!

    What also bugs me is Dusty's reluctance to say why he keeps batting Cozart second. He gets asked about it and acts like someone is insulting his mother.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

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    Re: 1. Choo 2. Votto 3. Phillips 4. Bruce ....... the time is NOW!!!!!!!

    Human factor coming to play a bit...

    John Fay ‏@johnfayman 1m
    MLB Network had Cozart-in-No.2-hole debate today. Cozart was watching. Latos covered Cozart's eyes. Choo had choice words for debaters #reds
    Talked to Baker about Cozart batting second. Will post on the blog shortly. #reds @Cincienquirer
    Last edited by TOBTTReds; 07-11-2013 at 05:32 PM.

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    Member BungleBengals's Avatar
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    Re: 1. Choo 2. Votto 3. Phillips 4. Bruce ....... the time is NOW!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Not true. Almost any hitter the Reds have would be better in the 2nd spot that Cozart. It's more of a rally killer to have an out machine between your good hitters at the top than it is to have a "dead" spot in the lineup between 6-9.
    Agreed.

    Votto in the 2 hole makes so much sense to me. First off he has walked like 50 times more than Cozart has. Second, he can make the contact that at least moves runners over. Let's face it. Votto could have a lot of RBI's if pitchers pitched to him, but they don't. So why waste an RBI spot in the 3 hole on a guy who gets walked as much as he does. Seems to me that when you have a guy with as good of an eye as Votto and pitchers are afraid to pitch to him too which just adds to him getting on base. Then you have Phillips and Bruce, our RBI leaders up next to try to knock Votto and/or Choo in. I do not remember what spot Frazier hit in last year, but I thought it was 4th or 5th and he came through well. Maybe changing spots will be good for him too.
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  16. #58
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: 1. Choo 2. Votto 3. Phillips 4. Bruce ....... the time is NOW!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by CySeymour View Post
    What also bugs me is Dusty's reluctance to say why he keeps batting Cozart second. He gets asked about it and acts like someone is insulting his mother.
    Exactly what is he supposed to say? Just asking the question is insulting one of his players. No matter how diplomatically the question is put, it boils down to "why is a guy who sucks so much hitting at the top of the order?"

    Dusty is the Manager over a group of guys. There is no way he can get into any type of debate without something uncomplimentary being said of one of the human beings under his watch. Dusty's stonewalling seems like the only way he can really handle it IMO. Bringing it up is insulting some one and I think Dusty is trying to make it clear that he doesn't want to go there.

    I don't think Cozart should hit second, but if I was somehow on the team and was asked the question, I'd react exactly like Dusty does.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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    Re: 1. Choo 2. Votto 3. Phillips 4. Bruce ....... the time is NOW!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Seriously? You think Dusty is a Votto slump away from being fired? Wow.
    That is not at all what I was implying. We can all agree upon that the common theme in the baseball world (managerial world) is your best hitter hits 3rd. If Dusty were to buck this trend and bat Joey 2nd, then Joey falls into a slump, and the Reds slump, the finger pointing at Dusty would be pretty huge.

    It could lead to him getting canned as a result of making a not so common move, and the team fading away.

    If he makes the move and the offense goes bonkers he is called smart and nothing changes about his future job status.

    Overall his job is much safer playing the status quo. That is all I was implying.
    "Today was the byproduct of us thinking we can come back from anything." - Joey Votto after blowing a 10-1 lead and holding on for the 12-11 win on 8/25/2010.

  19. #60
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: 1. Choo 2. Votto 3. Phillips 4. Bruce ....... the time is NOW!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffey012 View Post
    If he makes the move and the offense goes bonkers he is called smart and nothing changes about his future job status.

    Overall his job is much safer playing the status quo. That is all I was implying.
    I can't imagine moving Votto to the 2nd position would have Dusty's job on the line. This is a slippery slope argument IMO. If things go badly, for god sakes he can just go back to his "SS hits 2nd" ways.


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