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Thread: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

  1. #166
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Quote Originally Posted by dubc47834 View Post
    Maybe he does know that and just thinks it's his only option. I have no idea, but to say he doesn't care I completely disagree with!
    If he thinks it is his only option it is also just as bad.

    End of the day, there is zero justification that makes sense at this point. You can't use the "jumpstart him in front of Votto" crap anymore. It didn't work (not that it ever would in the first place, he isn't seeing a different variance of pitches despite what people believe).

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  3. #167
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    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    If he thinks it is his only option it is also just as bad.

    End of the day, there is zero justification that makes sense at this point. You can't use the "jumpstart him in front of Votto" crap anymore. It didn't work (not that it ever would in the first place, he isn't seeing a different variance of pitches despite what people believe).
    I'll make you a deal. Cozart can hit eighth. Against the AL, with a DH instead of the pitcher, Cozart can hit ninth.

    But in return, Mesoraco hits tenth.

  4. #168
    Member Ironman92's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Cozy will bat 2nd tomorrow

  5. #169
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    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironman92 View Post
    Cozy will bat 2nd tomorrow
    Perhaps not. Lefty pitching. DRob hits high in the order against lefties.

    However, if Heisey plays left, then you will be correct.

  6. #170
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    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I'll make you a deal. Cozart can hit eighth. Against the AL, with a DH instead of the pitcher, Cozart can hit ninth.

    But in return, Mesoraco hits tenth.
    You have no such powers (or do you?).

  7. #171
    Member Mitri's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot


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  9. #172
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    One of these interviews with Dusty, he said Cozart hitting the ball in the air was his enemy. I think he wants Cozart to be the prototype Judy hitter.

    But as I see it, the only value Cozart has is his occasional pop.

    Pay attention to the open sky

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  11. #173
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    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Where Cozart hits just doesn't matter that much, as post #152 points out well. Would I like to see Cozart further down in the lineup? Sure. Is it the reason we're "struggling" (to the extent that term applies to a team 11 over nearing the break and comfortably in the playoffs if the season ended today)? Nope.

    The thing about Dusty is that he sticks with his players and tries to let them play through their struggles. That annoys fans something awful because fans want instant change at the first sign of trouble. And there have been well publicized instances where Dusty hung with a player, hoping he would play his way out of the slump, only to find that the player just wasn't up to the task (Patterson, Taveras, Stubbs...maybe Cozart).

    The thing, though, is that sometimes Dusty has been right. Very few were Ludwick believers last year after the first two months of the season. Many on redszone lamented the signing and Dusty batting him at cleanup. And then he went on a three-month tear where he was one of the best players in the NL, filled the void created by Votto's injury, and was an enormous part of our second division title in nearly two decades. There was about as much reason to think that was going to happen as Cozart becoming a very skilled two-hole hitter.

    This year most of the fans wanted Mike Leake sent down to the minors in favor of Cingrani, fans and particularly Redszone fans always preferring the shiny new toy to what's been around. The short-term stats might have said that was the right decision, but Dusty resisted the change and hung with Leake and he's been our best pitcher for two months.

    So, more important than whether Cozart should bat second is the question of whether, on balance and over a meaningful time period, does Dusty's propensity for sticking with his players in positions where they are not currently successful work out more than it does not? I am inclined to believe that it does. And whether the stats directly work out or not, to Dusty's side of the ledger you have to add the fact that Dusty's letting the players play out of slumps is strongly preferred by the players - they play freely and I think better knowing their job is not immediately in danger - and that is all part of Dusty's greatest skill, that is management of personalities and egos over the course of a very long season. Not only was it better for Leake to stay in the rotation, but consider how he now feels taking the mound - with his manager's unwavering support - as compared to how he would have felt when we needed to bring him back almost immediately after Cueto got hurt again, with the Reds having basically said that they weren't believers anymore. Personality management is so important and Dusty is great at it.
    Last edited by muethibp; 07-13-2013 at 09:20 AM.

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  13. #174
    Member Cedric's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Quote Originally Posted by muethibp View Post
    Where Cozart hits just doesn't matter that much, as post #152 points out well. Would I like to see Cozart further down in the lineup? Sure. Is it the reason we're "struggling" (to the extent that term applies to a team 11 over nearing the break and comfortably in the playoffs if the season ended today)? Nope.

    The thing about Dusty is that he sticks with his players and tries to let them play through their struggles. That annoys fans something awful because fans want instant change at the first sign of trouble. And there have been well publicized instances where Dusty hung with a player, hoping he would play his way out of the slump, only to find that the player just wasn't up to the task (Patterson, Taveras, Stubbs...maybe Cozart).

    The thing, though, is that sometimes Dusty has been right. Very few were Ludwick believers last year after the first two months of the season. Many on redszone lamented the signing and Dusty batting him at cleanup. And then he went on a three-month tear where he was one of the best players in the NL, filled the void created by Votto's injury, and was an enormous part of our second division title in nearly two decades. There was about as much reason to think that was going to happen as Cozart becoming a very skilled two-hole hitter.

    This year most of the fans wanted Mike Leake sent down to the minors in favor of Cingrani, fans and particularly Redszone fans always preferring the shiny new toy to what's been around. The short-term stats might have said that was the right decision, but Dusty resisted the change and hung with Leake and he's been our best pitcher for two months.

    So, more important than whether Cozart should bat second is the question of whether, on balance and over a meaningful time period, does Dusty's propensity for sticking with his players in positions where they are not currently successful work out more than it does not? I am inclined to believe that it does. And whether the stats directly work out or not, to Dusty's side of the ledger you have to add the fact that Dusty's letting the players play out of slumps is strongly preferred by the players - they play freely and I think better knowing their job is not immediately in danger - and that is all part of Dusty's greatest skill, that is management of personalities and egos over the course of a very long season. Not only was it better for Leake to stay in the rotation, but consider how he now feels taking the mound - with his manager's unwavering support - as compared to how he would have felt when we needed to bring him back almost immediately after Cueto got hurt again, with the Reds having basically said that they weren't believers anymore. Personality management is so important and Dusty is great at it.
    People bend over backwards to come up with non tangible reasons to consider Dusty Baker a good manager. His actual baseball decisions make little sense and even his biggest proponents seem to agree with that.

    I do think fans have the right to question seemingly idiotic quotes about clogging the bases and other nonsense. It's not much to ask someone making his salary and having such a unique position to actually understand the sport he's managing. I think it's archaic thinking and arrogance which he's allowed to continue with because people make excuses for his laziness and lack of growth.

    Baseball is more about luck than any other sport I know. I just think Dusty Baker has had incredible luck leading very talented rosters. I don't see him working "personality management" magic into a pennant if he was managing the 2004 Reds.
    This is the time. The real Reds organization is back.

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  15. #175
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    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric View Post
    People bend over backwards to come up with non tangible reasons to consider Dusty Baker a good manager. His actual baseball decisions make little sense and even his biggest proponents seem to agree with that.

    I do think fans have the right to question seemingly idiotic quotes about clogging the bases and other nonsense. It's not much to ask someone making his salary and having such a unique position to actually understand the sport he's managing. I think it's archaic thinking and arrogance which he's allowed to continue with because people make excuses for his laziness and lack of growth.

    Baseball is more about luck than any other sport I know. I just think Dusty Baker has had incredible luck leading very talented rosters. I don't see him working "personality management" magic into a pennant if he was managing the 2004 Reds.
    I consider my self a SABR-leaning baseball fan. I've always accepted Baker despite this because I felt his management of personalities made up for a lot of his anti-SABR decisions. His arrogant rationale for having one of the biggest out machines in the NL hitting between Choo and Votto is pretty much the last staw for me, for the first time since he's been here I'm willing to say that Dusty is a detriment to the team. As the Fangraphs article says we don't have any big OBP guys outside Choo and Votto but that doesn't excuse putting your worst OBP guy near the top of the order.

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  17. #176
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    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Zack Cozart doesn't need confidence. That isn't why he can't hit. He can't hit because he can't hit. The guy turns 28 years old in a month. He isn't going to figure something out. There won't be an "aha!" moment. He has never really hit, scouts never expected him to hit.
    Doug, how bad of a SS is/was Hamilton? I never saw him play and wondered if he was moved to fill a "future need" or simply an inferior defender. I know he's not ready offensively. But how much worse than Cozart could he be? At least he offers a couple of things absent in Cozart's game: speed and an ability to bunt.

  18. #177
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Some perspective. The SS below "qualify" (19 total qualifiers) and have an OPS lower than Zach Cozart.

    Starlin Castro
    Andrelton Simmons
    Alcides Escobar
    Adeiny Hechavarria
    Elvis Andrus
    Pete Kozma

    Some "name" players there. SS is generally a weak hitting position. Only 8 qualifiers have an OPS > .700. The problem is the other positions need to be better so that the weak hitting SS can bat 8th as he should. The Reds problem is that they have 3 of the 8 positions manned with guys who should hit 7th or lower and only two spots like that in the line-up. Two other positions are manned with guys who shouldn't hit higher than 6th. Jamming that many bottom of the order bats into a line-up is going to cause a some guys to hit in a spot where we wouldn't want them. I'm on board with the idea that Cozart in the 2 hole is probably the worst possible option, but only Choo, Votto and Bruce should be hitting higher than 6th IMO. Phillips and Frazier would be good in the 6 hole. The rest are 8th place hitters.

    Hope for a Ludwick early and effective return. When he's back there will really only be one hitter in the top 6 spots that is probably too high in the order (Phillips in the 2 hole) and that one isn't as offensive as some of the others.

    IMO, Dusty is right when he says, "not everybody can hit at the bottom of the order." I agree that the guy he chose to promote was probbaly the worst choice possible, but Frazier's drop from last year, Mes continued under-performance, injury and age hitting Hanigan and Ludwick's injury are the main culprits with the sagging offense.

    As SS go, Cozart is perfectly acceptable. He's a bottom of the order hitter who shouldn't be so relied upon in the middle of the offense, but most SS are the same. Last year, Cozart had a higher OPS than the AL All Star starter for 2013. Stop blaming the SS with the flaws of the rest of the team that puts him in the 2 hole.
    Last edited by mth123; 07-13-2013 at 12:16 PM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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  20. #178
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Checking today's lineup in the game thread, and I kind of dig it man.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  21. #179
    Knowledge Is Good Big Klu's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Checking today's lineup in the game thread, and I kind of dig it man.
    I dig that you said that you "dig it man."

    70's slang...right on!
    Eric Stratton, Rush Chairman. Damn glad to meet ya.

  22. #180
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Klu View Post
    I dig that you said that you "dig it man."

    70's slang...right on!
    That's boss
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."


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