Turn Off Ads?
Page 14 of 14 FirstFirst ... 41011121314
Results 196 to 210 of 210

Thread: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

  1. #196
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    1,403

    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    For dougdirt and RedEye:

    A: You are a pitcher. You are facing Joey Votto with RISP. You look in the on-deck circle and see Corky Miller.
    B: You are a pitcher. You are facing Joey Votto with RISP. You look in the on-deck circle and see Miguel Cabrera.

    Question: Are you really going to pitch Votto the same in each situation?

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #197
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    7,983

    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    For dougdirt and RedEye:

    A: You are a pitcher. You are facing Joey Votto with RISP. You look in the on-deck circle and see Corky Miller.
    B: You are a pitcher. You are facing Joey Votto with RISP. You look in the on-deck circle and see Miguel Cabrera.

    Question: Are you really going to pitch Votto the same in each situation?
    Individual hypothetical situations kind of miss the point of what I was saying.

    You don't want Corky Miller batting behind Votto, but not because he doesn't provide "protection." You don't want him there because he's a bad hitter. That's the overriding factor that should be used in making out lineups.
    Last edited by RedEye; 07-15-2013 at 04:29 PM.

  4. #198
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    1,403

    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Individual hypothetical situations kind of miss the point of what I was saying.

    You don't want Corky Miller batting behind Votto, but not because he doesn't provide "protection." You don't want him there because he's a bad hitter.
    I think my question went directly to the heart of what you were saying. You said you don't believe in lineup protection.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    I might agree if I actually believed in lineup protection -- which I don't. I think the evidence is pretty clear that guys hit pretty similarly no matter where they are in a lineup or who is around them. That's because a pitcher focuses on getting the current hitter out, not on the next guy.
    The bolded part of your post above seems to indicate you would pitch to Votto the same regardless of who is hitting behind him. That's what I was asking.

  5. #199
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    35,293

    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    For dougdirt and RedEye:

    A: You are a pitcher. You are facing Joey Votto with RISP. You look in the on-deck circle and see Corky Miller.
    B: You are a pitcher. You are facing Joey Votto with RISP. You look in the on-deck circle and see Miguel Cabrera.

    Question: Are you really going to pitch Votto the same in each situation?
    Sure, in a situation where a manager is dumb enough to bat a AAAA player behind Joey Votto, it matters.

    In almost every situation on the planet that would actually happen, lineup protection doesn't matter much.

    Again, Zack Cozart should be hitting well because he has Joey Votto protecting him, right? Well that hasn't worked out because pitcher are there to get Cozart out. And they would do that no matter who was batting behind him short of a pitcher or a Corky Miller type of guy who flat out doesn't belong in the Major Leagues.

    End of the day, I am pitching to 99% of Major Leaguers in a way to get them out without worrying about who is up next. My plan to pitch to Joey Votto would vary by situations and there are certainly times I would walk him to get to the next batter, but most of those times would be more about setting up a force out. Joey Votto is a great hitter. He still makes an out more than 50% of the time. I am more likely to get him out than he is to get on base. Pitch to him. Odds are you are going to succeed. Every hitter has a weakness. Find it. Deploy that plan. Succeed. Don't worry about who is batting next. Every hitter in baseball fails at reaching first more than they succeed at finding it.

  6. Likes:

    Roy Tucker (07-15-2013)

  7. #200
    Member kpresidente's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,986

    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Sure, in a situation where a manager is dumb enough to bat a AAAA player behind Joey Votto, it matters.
    Well, if your manager is dumb enough to bat Cozart 2nd....

    You don't want Corky Miller batting behind Votto, but not because he doesn't provide "protection." You don't want him there because he's a bad hitter. That's the overriding factor that should be used in making out lineups.
    I don't think this makes much sense. It's a given you want the best 8 hitters you can field in the lineup somewhere. The question being discussed is what you do from that point. If Corky Miller is playing for whatever reason, you guys seem to think it doesn't matter whether he's hitting 8th or behind Votto, so why point out the fact that he can't hit? We've already established he's going to be hitting somewhere.

  8. #201
    5.3 Posts Abv Replacement BluegrassRedleg's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    South of Cincinnati
    Posts
    2,146

    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Dumbest thing Dusty's ever done. At least with the leadoff issues in the past a modest argument could be made that there wasn't really many good alternatives.

    This ongoing situation is madness. It's not about what's right or logical, it's about Dusty being IN CHARGE. It's about power, control and stubbornness.

    I've always said it in jest (but with a hint of seriousness) the best way to get Dusty to change is to never bring it up. But in doing that, you have to tolerate three-quarters a season of utter BS, like Stubbs suddenly and inexplicably being moved to the bottom of the order late last season after sabotaging the top of the order all year long.
    Rounding third and heading for home...

  9. #202
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    7,983

    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    I think my question went directly to the heart of what you were saying. You said you don't believe in lineup protection.

    The bolded part of your post above seems to indicate you would pitch to Votto the same regardless of who is hitting behind him. That's what I was asking.
    I don't believe in lineup protection as a meaningful idea in the grand scheme. Yes, you could argue in an individual instance that it "exists", but that is not borne out over the long haul.

  10. #203
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    7,983

    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Quote Originally Posted by kpresidente View Post
    I don't think this makes much sense. It's a given you want the best 8 hitters you can field in the lineup somewhere. The question being discussed is what you do from that point. If Corky Miller is playing for whatever reason, you guys seem to think it doesn't matter whether he's hitting 8th or behind Votto, so why point out the fact that he can't hit? We've already established he's going to be hitting somewhere.
    Good hitters are good hitters no matter where they hit. You want your good hitters bunched up and hitting as much as possible. All of the other supposed elements of lineup construction -- leadoff hitters, clutch, small ball, protection, whatever -- pale by comparison with these basic insights.

  11. #204
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    7,983

    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    For anyone who is interested, here is a pretty good piece from 2011 on the concept of lineup protection. The main example in the article is discussions about whether Jason Bay needed more protection in the Mets lineup.

    Here is a tidbit:

    Jason Bay could have hit behind Joe Morgan and in front of Lou Gehrig on the Mets; he wasn’t going to mimic his production in Fenway Park after he moved to Citi Field. And, what would have helped him as much as anything in that dream scenario is the amount of outs saved by adding those two players to the lineup and, thus, extra chances afforded to Bay to produce at whatever level he’s going to produce.

  12. #205
    malingered here too long malcontent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    3,059

    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Quote Originally Posted by BluegrassRedleg View Post
    This ongoing situation is madness. It's not about what's right or logical, it's about Dusty being IN CHARGE. It's about power, control and stubbornness.
    Agreed. But we're not having this conversation if the man isn't also utterly clueless when it comes to the concept of OBP (see sig line below).
    Everything is perfect, but there is a lot of room for improvement. --- Shunryu Suzuki-roshi

  13. #206
    malingered here too long malcontent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    3,059

    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    I'll admit that Baker could conceivably manage the Reds to a World Series victory one day.

    The sun could also rise in the west tomorrow.
    Everything is perfect, but there is a lot of room for improvement. --- Shunryu Suzuki-roshi

  14. #207
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    42,670

    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    http://www.billjamesonline.com/the_h...uthorId=3&pg=2

    Dusty Baker has, in my opinion, 94% of a Hall of Fame resume.

    In plain English, Dusty Baker may well be as much of an idiot as many of you claim that he is. I donít really care; itís not my problem. Good manager or bad, he has enjoyed a significant amount of success over a long period of time. He won 90 or more games with the San Francisco Giants five times, including 103 wins in 1993. He won a divisional title in Chicago, and has won two more in Cincinnati.

    The San Francisco Giants won 75 games in 1991, and 72 games in 1993. They added Barry Bonds that winteróand Dusty Baker. They won 103 games.

    Is it unrealistic to say that that team exceeded expectations by 27 games, given that they added Barry Bonds? Sure.

    But the team did succeed. It is not unrealistic to say that the Giants exceeded expectations by 15 games in 1997, or that the Cincinnati Reds exceeded expectations by 15 games in 2012. Dusty Baker has had nine seasons in which his teams have exceeded expectations by a total 115 wins. Thatís a very solid record.

    Bill James

  15. Likes:

    reds44 (07-16-2013)

  16. #208
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    35,293

    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    What were these "expectations" he is referring to? I can't imagine anywhere that had the 2012 Reds "expected" to win 82 games, which is what would have had to happen for Dusty and the Reds to outperform their expectations in 2012 when they won 97 games.

  17. #209
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    7,968

    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    What were these "expectations" he is referring to? I can't imagine anywhere that had the 2012 Reds "expected" to win 82 games, which is what would have had to happen for Dusty and the Reds to outperform their expectations in 2012 when they won 97 games.
    2009 78 wins
    2010 91 wins
    2011 79 wins

    I think most people in the know with the addition of Latos for 2012 would have projected the Reds to end up in the high 80's win-wise. But without looking back, I wouldn't be surprised to see some projections saying the Reds were a .500ish team.

    Early 2012 - I believe people like yourself were saying Cueto was a middle of the rotation pitcher still. I want to say Homer had not come anywhere close to 200 IP in the majors yet. Things were different then.

  18. #210
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    35,293

    Re: Dusty plans to stick with Cozart in the No. 2 spot

    Look back then. No one (projection system wise) was projecting anywhere near .500.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25